To be 100% confused how to vote

[Yellowsun11]

Regarding Europe - Iv looked on line and for the first time tempted not to vote as I really don't know how to vote .

The EU does not have the capacity to send troops to war, as defence is thankfully, a national capability.
Angela Merkel and Jean-Claude Juncker (and others) have expressed a strong interest in creating an integrated EU army.

wasonthelist There have been rumours flying around Brussels for the past decade that I have been here about that, and it just isn't going to happen.

Most of the EU member states are also currently NATO nations. Apart from the UK, Greece and Poland (iirc), the EU member states who are also NATO nations are massively retrenching on their defence spending, and failing to meet defence commitments. The US kindly picks up the majority of the tab for NATO, and thus the defence of Europe.

The EU does not have the money to 'stand up' its own forces, and contributions from member states would have to sky rocket to pay for it. Those in the Forces of their own countries may not want to be in an EU Armed Force, and really, what would be the point of standing up EU forces when NATO already has the know how/capacity/expertise to do the job far better, and has a proven track record. Can you imagine going to war with the endless meetings to decide if the troops march left or right on the parade ground, as some member states want them to go one way, and others want them to march in a different direction?

A friend of mine who was a junior ambassador to the EU from her Eastern European nation described committee meetings as herding cats. Look at how the Greek fiasco was handled and is still ongoing, and then ask yourself, do you really think they are competent enough to be trusted with troops and weapons?

Read widely from both sides of the debate right up to the day and then go with your gut when you're in the polling booth. Just vote. As an EU immigrant, I don't have a vote, but I'd like everyone who has to go out there and have their say - whatever it is.

Ok, myhovercraft, I think you're illustrating how your entrenched view is colouring your assertions. I can assure you I don't think "everything will be pink and fluffy" at all, and if I didn't know better I'd feel you were even being a little patronising.

If you are trying to assert that your apparently superior intellectual rigour in examining the facts implies that we're risking an economic disaster (which is ill-defined rhetoric really), then I have to politely disagree. You have no more idea than anyone else what may or may not happen.

Scary I didn't say it was a good idea - just that some EU politicos seem to like it.

Poland, Ireland and Denmark have various opt outs - so not the UK alone

Proving my point that the EU isn't forcing laws on us that we don't want. There is flexibility. Thank you.

I was actually pointing out that we aren't alone in having opt-outs, because I thought you were trying to imply we were unique.

The EU certainly is forcing laws we don't want- VAT rules is one - as in Tampon Tax, but it's far from an isolated example.

As long as people do as much research as they can and then use the research to inform their vote - that's all they can do OP.

I am probably OUT but know that it is a huge decision and the more I can find out the better. I might come across someone or something that convinces me to stay.

*[img]i.imgur.com/8pgJ1UF.gif[/img

Hovercraft, I forgot t add something earlier. Of course the Telegraph haven't tried to put a spin on the Pritchard articles, in fact the big surprise is that they published them at all given their extreme trans-atlanticist viewpoint.

Definitely with no doubt whatsoever LEAVE.

I did start a Thread " In out shake it all about,the EU what to vote.
The Thread is full but still accessible.

I posted loads of information and my views.

Feel free to have a look.

Plus I was invited to start another Thread entitled "The EU Referendum is nearly upon us .....23 rd of June.

There also I put my case backed by many newspaper articles ranging from the Daily Mail through to The Shetland Times to the Guardian.Plus the Business case to leave The Economic case to leave etcetera, etcetera,loads of information.

Articles by women who wish to leave.Such as Suzanne Moore writing in the Guardian and Priti Patel the Minister of State for employment and Cabinet Minister.

As a mum and along with my husband who is an Economist we are very very happy to vote Leave.

I have contributed extensively to these Threads and therefore will not be posting more.

Do please have a look at them.

I am in the happy position of total confidence in my choice to vote Leave along with my husband,family,pals and acquaintances.

Have you partaken in a sherry or two Daisy?

I vote to Leave.

For so many reasons.

I adore Europe, I love to travel there, it would be a shame if i becomes a bit of a hassle to travel there, but for safety and so many other reasons it will be worth it.

I read an article that claimed " guns without borders" on how terrorists and criminals exploit no borders in the EU to shift guns and drugs around. The EU powers were warned of the weapon type used in Paris about 5 years before the attack, they were warned about the very guns used to slaughter people and they did NOTHING.

When people want to vote in because they want to travel freely around the EU I cant help think of the people trafficking going on, those who are moving their slaves freely, the terrorists running guns round and so on. Do the people who want an easier - foreign holiday think of this?

I am also alarmed by the anger of people across the EU and note, not only is the far right on the rise in Germany but also Austria has just witnessed a huge boost electoral win for the far right.

Something has to give, its a very scary situation. People are really really angry and being pushed and I can only see a leave vote, damping down this potential raging fire.

Look at how the Greek fiasco was handled and is still ongoing, and then ask yourself, do you really think they are competent enough to be trusted with troops and weapons?

Not only Greece but the gun situation I mentioned above, the migrant crisis, the Turkey crisis, none of it is being handled well, the in abitily to close borders after the Paris attack after Hollands grave " we are closing our borders" and the terrorists just flipped back to Belgium.

I cant find the link but some one posted an incredible article from the BBC - on the Eu - they described it as dying but with a hand reaching up from the grave and MORE.

Maybe someone knows which one it is and can link to it.

At the end of the day , any prudent wise reader and seeker of information will bear in mind the portal its coming through,

But - and some posters do this, you still cannot deny the act.

Ie - a man stabs a woman, each paper will have a different take on the facts, the story but at the end of the day a man has stabbed a woman. Some posters on here try and make out - the man never stabbed the woman.

He did - its a question of who why and how. But the stabbing is the fact and it happened.

Nothing wrong with that on a Friday night!

What are you on Hovercraft?

An opium pipe dreaming of airy fairy land?

www.spiegel.de/international/europe/following-the-path-of-the-paris-terror-weapons-a-1083461.html

the first day was May 21, 2008, the day the European Union announced it was planning to push through stricter rules pertaining to assault rifles. The regulations would allow weapons aficionados to decorate their living rooms with assault rifles if they so desired, but only if they had been deactivated such that they could never again be used to fire live ammunition. The EU said that the new guidelines would contain extremely strict technical standards for such deco-weapons.

But then nothing happened -- for six years and 233 days. Worse yet, blank-firing guns and other so-called alarm weapons weren't included in the proposed regulations. If one irreversibly modified an assault weapon into a rifle that could only fire blanks, the EU bureaucrats weren't interested. Brussels was only interested in weapons that could no longer be fired at all, not even blanks.

As early as 2013, though, Slovakian police had warned Europe how easy it was to reactivate such modified weapons so that they could once again exert deadly force. The EU knew about it, talked about it and recognized the danger But did nothing.

EastMidsMummy you'd base your vote on who is voting the other way hmm? Really?

Sure. I can't judge the economics (who can?) so I'm happy to base it on that. Gove, Farage and Boris Base their politics on values that are hugely opposed to my own.
They're not suddenly reversing those values where Europe is concerned. Their vision of the U.K. outside as a low tax, free market zone sounds terrible.

I guess we could leave, give it a couple of years, and if it doesn't work out, rejoin.
No biggie.

hefzi Half of the funding I hold would be gone outwith of the EU. I have a rather brilliant PhD student who is currently in Marseille as part of a collaborative effort between my institute and others in the EU. My own job would be nonexistent. We rely on sharing knowledge, people, funding, on all people working together.

I think it incredibly naive to imagine the UK government will, and could afford to, replace EU science funding.

EastMidsMummy, you said you're voting 'remain' because:
Gove, Farage and Boris Base their politics on values that are hugely opposed to my own.

So am I correct in thinking that you share the same values as Cameron, Osbourne, Hunt, Blair, Clarkson?

Those of us (I think the majority) who want to stay in know the EU is not perfect but we are better in than out.

If you are of the left (I am not) the EU best protects and introduces rights and protections and is a good additional counter balance to local states. Think of much of our discrimination law, wage protection and all the rest. If you are of the right as I am think of the economic advantages (they are huge), the ability for business to do business and have some way in EU laws and that huge market and from a libertarian piont of view the power the EU has against the USA on matters such as privacy rights.

If you aren't sure then vote to stay in on the basis the status quo has done you no harm. Do vote however. Every vote counts and unfortunately the massive white old age pensioner not too well educated crowd who are often UKIP or closet racists will be turning out in force to vote leave. We need to stop them. The younger brighter busy crowd may just not bother to vote.