(UPDATE) Am I a bitch? I don't want DD sleeping over with these people!

[thenappyslayer]

Original thread - www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2623701-Am-I-a-bitch-I-dont-want-DD-sleeping-over-with-these-people?noti=1#60728941

So sorry for the essay but I'm so upset.

Do I like the fact that the kids are dirty, the dad is a borderline bully and the mum smokes around the DCs No? But that doesn't mean she is evil or doesn't have feelings and I do owe her an apology. I should have been (sort of) honest as many of you suggested and said we don't do sleep overs at other peoples homes. Just because I don't want DD sleeping over doesn't mean our kids can't have some fun. Today after school I gave DD a little pressie and card for the DC this post is about, hoping that would be the beginning of a peace offering. DD was excited and ran up to the other DC and gave it to her. Whilst they were having a little natter I took the opportunity to grab the mum for a quick apology - and to propose a sleep over at mine in a few weeks to make up for it.

I was well aware it could look like "Your home isn't good enough my my DD but my home is good enough for your DD" but to be frank as DDs mother I do have real concerns about this lady's current home life and don't feel comfortable. I think that's fair. As soon as I started speaking she was cutting me off with "it's fine" every five seconds - she wasn't being aggressive (I wasn't threatened ) but she was very snappy and rude. By this time our DC's were by us again and I didn't want the DCs to see the tension so I said "sorry again, but lets please try and work something out". As I started to walk away I heard "fuck off" under her breath and she started snapping at her two DCs who as I mentioned before are the most quiet little kids you will ever meet. She was rushing them to zip up their coats and hold on to the pram really harshly. I naturally turned around at the "fuck off" and when she started snapping I did frown (I noticed a dad behind her looking too) and she snapped at me again but only said "WHAT?" It easily could have been missed in a busy playground - nothing to call the police over - but it made me uneasy not only for me but for her DC's so I literally shook my head and walked off. It takes a bit to get out of the playground as the exit is a little on the small side and prams etc have to get through and I could hear her behind me going off and having a rant.

I'm not superwoman and didn't look back but she was upset about a fake bitch giving her looks (me) and some drama with her mum. Everyone around us could hear her and DD was getting anxious so I refused to look back and just got straight into the car.

Got home and told DH about what happened when he got in. It's not a big deal in the grander scheme of what life's about but it set off this huge fucking fight about moving DD to a different school.

I wont bore you with ten more paragraphs but DH was leaning towards prep school and I wanted her in state. Even when we didn't get our first choice of primary school I stuck to my guns and sent her to this one which at the time was rated "good" by OFSTED but has issues in the past. 31 kids in her class, unchallenging homework and two horrible teachers later and DH has had enough after what I told him went down after school. He knows this from my feedback and having a sweeping look at DDs homework and asserting it's too easy. Fair enough. It is. Okay then. I said what I saw to be the most rational thing at the time; "lets have another word with the teacher about homework and I'll give the other schools in the area a call"

He got really irritated and said I've had my way now I should just let it go and have her do 10+. I said we've already been to a couple of open days and I didn't like the vibe. I just didn't. I don't want her going too far before Y7 so we have a limited choice of independent schools.

The argument escalated and consisted of:

Me saying he is barely home, gets to sweep DD off her feet at 7:30pm every evening and be fun superdad while I'm flustered moany mum! I'm the one who does the hard shit (homework, school run, playdates, cooking, washing, after school clubs etc) and he gets to tuck her in and play with her on the weekends while I slave over dishes and hoover. He isn't even that involved in her school life (not as much as me) so what's wrong with me taking the lead with certain choices? Such as schooling?

Him saying he works really hard and does it all for us - why am I making him feel guilty for supporting us. What's wrong with him having quality time with DD when he gets in.

Me getting really angry because even though I don't do the crazy 70 hour weeks I used to, I do still take on a projects that can accommodate my home life. And no I'm not minted like him and his fucking family but my job isn't less than because I've cut down.

Him saying he didn't mean it like that

Me saying he did

Him saying I have something against independent schools and it's dramatic faux liberal crap

Him saying I think he's a snob and I'm missing the point. It's not about me thinking the schools are a bit elitist and lame, it's about DD's education.

DD was upstairs in her room probably heard the whole thing I'm disgusted at myself and pray she was fast asleep.

It was petty - but a little on vicious side and he has never ever spoken to me like this.

I'm downstairs and don't want to go to bed.

After being called a snob yesterday on MN its ironic that at home I get into a RL argument with DH because he thinks I think HE'S a snob.

I feel like such shit. Such shit.

From that mum being nasty in front of everyone at school to DH being pissed at me - this is a shitty evening. Just want to disappear.

Sorry, dd's oh

Anyone else feel in a week or so the DM will be running a tale of "SHOCK! How one request for a sleepover led to my divorce! A devastating consequence of benefit Britain!"

I'm your DH and my DH is you.

1. This isn't about you. It's about DD.

1. You've lost sight of what really matters. State vs private. Estate vs posh house. Working class vs middle class. That's all noise. It's the person and substance that matters. Raise her right and your DD will be a credit to you both, whichever circles she moves in.

1. The frustrating thing is that YOU KNOW THIS! You married your DH! He married you! Despite your differences, you get along so well you actually married each other and procreated! Wtf other proof do you need that it's not about which school you go to?

1. Finally, just to reiterate, it's not about you. Fight the fight with your DH about your identities/joint identity, but don't use your DD's schooling as the battleground. Stakes are too high. Making sure she's a woman of substance by the time she's an adult, despite whatever school she goes to, is your job as her parent. The school plays a secondary role in this.

Her ranting like that over something so petty is embarrassing on her part. I wouldnt show my face for a long time at those school gates if i did something so embarrassing.

OP, I read your original post, but didn't comment. I am from the same "class" the mum you're posting about is in (social housing, topped up by benefits etc) and I would never let my DCs stay over with the family you describe. I would probably have let the smoking go, but verbally abusing small kids, NO.

If you think your DD would be better off private, why not? You can teach her to empathise with people from different classes yourself. You could talk about how hard it is to claw yourself back from poverty when you're born into it, that she is privileged to be in private school etc.

I was originally a middle class kid at a shit school, I used to get bullied horribly because my parents owned their house until my folks fee paid my way out of it - I still pissed my education up the wall though. I'm now married to someone raised on a rough estate and living on a less rough estate. You get knobs everywhere, to be honest with you.

I was bullied in primary and secondary school, school did nothing about it.
If i could afford private school i would send my child there. I know bullying can happen anywhere but i have a feeling they would pay more attention when you are paying.
Plus the classes are smaller, at my school they even bullied the teachers 😕

Op you've been treated horribly on here.
Yes you said something wrong which you apologised repeatedly for, yet people still won't let it go and continue to abuse you for it
Fact some posters are talking about maturity and then making digs at you just makes me laugh
I can actually see where you were coming from this morning.
It could have gone well. Some are saying that you made it clear their house wasn't good enough, but you turned down the first offer because you were 'busy' so you asked if they wanted to arrange another one? Some people would have taken it that way.
You certainly did not deserve the abuse from her.
It's definetely a good thing you declined the sleepover after she pulled that.
Cannot believe some people have said you were lucky she only told you to fuck off. Really ??

kali110
I really took the comments of me looking down on her to heart so tried to fix it. Even though I feel like an older mum (in this playground) with a nice car makes me get looks. It seems as though I'm "probably" a high nosed snob based on my current socio economic standing and that's okay to say here in MN - but on the flip side it's not okay to make assumptions about these people's homes because the kids are dirty and the mum smokes over her pram.
As my husband put it - this is dramatic faux liberal bullshit.
When I was at work full time and we socialised outside working hours the lines of coke went round and round. Round and round. Round and round. The lines of coke went round and round......All night long!!!!!
These are middle class people with fuck off houses in muswell hill and DCs at home with the young french au pair. I've smoked a little weed as a teenager but ive never done coke and watching them shocked me. I remember telling DH and him finding it hysterical. He couldn't believe I was shocked that rich people did that stuff. He said growing up if the mums weren't on valium or booze they had an invisible white moustache.
Anyway we didn't get anywhere last night. DH came in late , tried to pretend nothing happened (which bothered me) and just wanted to enjoy the child free evening. I conceded. He had to settle for wine, a GOT boxset and a half hearted BJ. I was too annoyed for anything else

I had sympathy for you until your last post. You ask not to be judged whilst insulting those that 'live in large houses in Muswell hill (and they're cocaine addicts )'. You make a lot of judgemental assumptions about many different groups of people. Has it ever occurred to you that the funny looks you receive in the playground are nothing to do with being 'An older mum with a nice car' and perhaps more to do with the fact that you are coming across as deeply unpleasant?

Oh dear. I actually signed up again precisely to extend some sympathy to you NappySlayer because I am a person who has outsripped her roots, and I know how dislocating it can be.

But I am afraid it has all vanished with that last post. I agree with Brightnorthernlights. You do not seem like a very nice person.

It seems that you derive your sense of self from being "better" than others whether it is the mums in the schoolyard or the Muswell Hill people. And you are seeing your DD not as a person in her own right who deserves all the chances that you as parents can give, but as an extension of you and your narcissistic self-regard.

I was also feeling sorry about your fight with your DH until that "half-hearted BJ" comment. If you really felt that annoyed and unhappy, and you really felt that this fight was getting to the core of how he saw you, a "half-hearted BJ", would not be at all an option, particularly as you then report to Mumsnet with a jokey strike through. I am sorry to say that despite the fact that you are obviously so enamoured of your own depths of insight, you come across as shallow and unreflective.

Perhaps it might help you to think not only of how you see yourself, but also how you come across to other people? We do not even know you and you are coming across very badly here.

I remember telling DH and him finding it hysterical. He couldn't believe I was shocked that rich people did that stuff. He said growing up if the mums weren't on valium or booze they had an invisible white moustache

You and your DH have some very particular conversations don't you? Do you greet each other every morning with a hilarious class-based ribbing? Another little gem about how diamonds fell from your DH's mouth when he yawned into the laps of drug-addled 'mums'? An intense and barbed gritty tale of how you picked your way through broken glass and exploding planets to get to those violin lessons?

I can't believe the DM haven't spotted you yet, OP. A couple more of your 'hysterical' anecdotes ought to do it

It's a sorry tale. Dickensian almost. A Tale of Two Playgrounds.

I'm still lost in the OP about slaving over dishes.
You have one school aged sleepover aged child.
Me too.
And I'm a single parent who works full time.
It's really not that hard

How about prep for primary, and then move her to state secondary at the start of Year 7?

Don't want to pile in really but have to admit that I didn't appreciate the references to the affluent in Muswell Hill either and the insinuation that this is rife among wealthy professionals. Many of my friends are affluent - but not one indulges in recreational drug use

Honestly OP, i am cringing for you.

You seem to be completely preoccupied about background and class.

Your 'half hearted BJ' comment is crass.

You really don't appear to demonstrate much self awareness.

If OP went to a bunch of coke fuelled N London parties, then that's her experience of it, not her random prejudice.

I had some sympathy with you at the beginning but your last post sounded made up.

My friend told me a couple of weeks ago that Coke snorting is practiced by a number of the naice middle class parents of primary school children my village, and these people openly discuss it. I was . I'm moving in very different circles fortunately. So what op said actually didn't shock me because of this.

And a lot of alcohol is also consumed in the middle classes. Its been all over the media recently, telling people to cut down on the glasses of wine, which quickly lead to consumed bottles of wine. So her dhs comment although flippant I would say is definitely true. There are plenty of middle class parents that drop their primary school children off with almighty hangovers or stay in bed til late the next day at the weekend and go for a jog later to try to run it off. These parents talk about it at my dds school and consider drinking to excess a normal event - in the same way as the Coke snorters in my previous post. Just out of interest, I googled "middle class snort coke" and got a lot of articles saying just how common it apparently is.
I don't find op was being nasty or patronising at all. I do think she should have left the last bit out though. I think maybe she was trying to say that we are all human and we have no idea what goes on behind closed doors and "faux liberalism" has nothing to do with this.

OP, your dd is old enough to start realising that there are lots of different people in the world with different homes, standards and priorities. As you have graphically pointed out, if she goes to private school there will also be parents whose values, language and attitude to childcare you will disapprove of.

So long as you and DH are clear what your expectation and priorities are at home, she'll be fine, and having a diverse and secure group of friends is more important than the occasional sleepover in slightly iffy circumstances, imho. (though if you think there's an odds on chance of her witnessing domestic violence that's another matter)

And frankly there are lots of crap private schools around too, they're just better at disguising inadequate teaching under a middle class veneer of naiceness.

Oh, everyone leave the OP alone for god's sake. No, she isn't making the cocaine stuff up. Yes, maybe the situation with the other mum was handled awkwardly but it's an awkward situation, so there you go. The fact that this woman was so rude and had an infantile rant vindicates the OP in my opinion.
If the other mum was posting her side of the story on here, she's be getting a kicking too. "You swore in the playground? Ok then "
People on here just love giving others shit. OP, I agree with others who suggest seeking a new school ASAP. I know that's easier said than done. But it's great that you have options. Hope you and your husband make up too x

At fucking last, a voice of reason! Nice one DeadGood

The problem here is that you are living in a dichotomy of inverse and actual snobbery.

On the one hand, you want your daughter to have a normal upbringing and attend a state school, whilst on the other, you are making her upbringing abnormal by being "the middle class mother" who is uptight about chavvy people.

Whilst you have passed judgement on this family as unfit to have your daughter stay over, you state that the kids are lovely. If they have lovely kids they must be doing something right, as a lot of middle class people have thoroughly obnoxious kids.

There are only two happy paths put of this IMO. In future, let your child engage in normal social activities with other children, regardless of whether their family is a bit chav, and trust in the strength of your own parenting to ensure they do not view these behaviours as acceptable in your house. If darling daughter inhales a bit of cigarette smoke, gets a bit grubby, and hears a few naughty words it won't actually do her any lasting damage. What will do her damage is being "made different" by the restrictions imposed asap result of your hang-ups, and socially excluded or even bullied as a result.

If you cannot live with this option, you should consider the merits of alternative schooling now, before too many of the mannerisms and affectations of her peers rub off and render her the odd one out at an independent school too.

I come from a family like yours. Dad grew up in a council terrace and was the first kid in his family to attend university, Mum went to a private girls school. My grandparents intended to then send her to a very good local state grammer, but she failed her 11+, missed the private secondary intake, and went to a south London comprehensive for a couple of years where she was initially bullied and got in fights for being posh.

Both parents were teachers and so private schooling was never on the cards financially and I went to state schools with a very mixed intake. Mindful of her own experiences, mum never expressed even a hint of judgement on the families of any of my friends from "chavier" backgrounds and never prevented me from going to their houses. I honestly think it did me a lot of good. I grew up understanding life outside a little smug middle class bubble and that has always served me well.