(UPDATE) Am I a bitch? I don't want DD sleeping over with these people!

[thenappyslayer]

Original thread - www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2623701-Am-I-a-bitch-I-dont-want-DD-sleeping-over-with-these-people?noti=1#60728941

So sorry for the essay but I'm so upset.

Do I like the fact that the kids are dirty, the dad is a borderline bully and the mum smokes around the DCs No? But that doesn't mean she is evil or doesn't have feelings and I do owe her an apology. I should have been (sort of) honest as many of you suggested and said we don't do sleep overs at other peoples homes. Just because I don't want DD sleeping over doesn't mean our kids can't have some fun. Today after school I gave DD a little pressie and card for the DC this post is about, hoping that would be the beginning of a peace offering. DD was excited and ran up to the other DC and gave it to her. Whilst they were having a little natter I took the opportunity to grab the mum for a quick apology - and to propose a sleep over at mine in a few weeks to make up for it.

I was well aware it could look like "Your home isn't good enough my my DD but my home is good enough for your DD" but to be frank as DDs mother I do have real concerns about this lady's current home life and don't feel comfortable. I think that's fair. As soon as I started speaking she was cutting me off with "it's fine" every five seconds - she wasn't being aggressive (I wasn't threatened ) but she was very snappy and rude. By this time our DC's were by us again and I didn't want the DCs to see the tension so I said "sorry again, but lets please try and work something out". As I started to walk away I heard "fuck off" under her breath and she started snapping at her two DCs who as I mentioned before are the most quiet little kids you will ever meet. She was rushing them to zip up their coats and hold on to the pram really harshly. I naturally turned around at the "fuck off" and when she started snapping I did frown (I noticed a dad behind her looking too) and she snapped at me again but only said "WHAT?" It easily could have been missed in a busy playground - nothing to call the police over - but it made me uneasy not only for me but for her DC's so I literally shook my head and walked off. It takes a bit to get out of the playground as the exit is a little on the small side and prams etc have to get through and I could hear her behind me going off and having a rant.

I'm not superwoman and didn't look back but she was upset about a fake bitch giving her looks (me) and some drama with her mum. Everyone around us could hear her and DD was getting anxious so I refused to look back and just got straight into the car.

Got home and told DH about what happened when he got in. It's not a big deal in the grander scheme of what life's about but it set off this huge fucking fight about moving DD to a different school.

I wont bore you with ten more paragraphs but DH was leaning towards prep school and I wanted her in state. Even when we didn't get our first choice of primary school I stuck to my guns and sent her to this one which at the time was rated "good" by OFSTED but has issues in the past. 31 kids in her class, unchallenging homework and two horrible teachers later and DH has had enough after what I told him went down after school. He knows this from my feedback and having a sweeping look at DDs homework and asserting it's too easy. Fair enough. It is. Okay then. I said what I saw to be the most rational thing at the time; "lets have another word with the teacher about homework and I'll give the other schools in the area a call"

He got really irritated and said I've had my way now I should just let it go and have her do 10+. I said we've already been to a couple of open days and I didn't like the vibe. I just didn't. I don't want her going too far before Y7 so we have a limited choice of independent schools.

The argument escalated and consisted of:

Me saying he is barely home, gets to sweep DD off her feet at 7:30pm every evening and be fun superdad while I'm flustered moany mum! I'm the one who does the hard shit (homework, school run, playdates, cooking, washing, after school clubs etc) and he gets to tuck her in and play with her on the weekends while I slave over dishes and hoover. He isn't even that involved in her school life (not as much as me) so what's wrong with me taking the lead with certain choices? Such as schooling?

Him saying he works really hard and does it all for us - why am I making him feel guilty for supporting us. What's wrong with him having quality time with DD when he gets in.

Me getting really angry because even though I don't do the crazy 70 hour weeks I used to, I do still take on a projects that can accommodate my home life. And no I'm not minted like him and his fucking family but my job isn't less than because I've cut down.

Him saying he didn't mean it like that

Me saying he did

Him saying I have something against independent schools and it's dramatic faux liberal crap

Him saying I think he's a snob and I'm missing the point. It's not about me thinking the schools are a bit elitist and lame, it's about DD's education.

DD was upstairs in her room probably heard the whole thing I'm disgusted at myself and pray she was fast asleep.

It was petty - but a little on vicious side and he has never ever spoken to me like this.

I'm downstairs and don't want to go to bed.

After being called a snob yesterday on MN its ironic that at home I get into a RL argument with DH because he thinks I think HE'S a snob.

I feel like such shit. Such shit.

From that mum being nasty in front of everyone at school to DH being pissed at me - this is a shitty evening. Just want to disappear.

Wow. Some of the people here are being really harsh on a person who's trying to make the right choices for her DD, and who already feels bad about the situation. Step away from the mob, find your humanity, and support a parent in distress!

OP I read your other thread and I thought some of the advice was OTT. 'Go against your gut so you can't get considered to be a snob' I personally think being considered a snob is fine if you are worried about your children's wellbeing.

I would have thought apologising was making a really big deal of the situation but that was the advice on the other thread but that would be my advice from here on, just leave it.

Personally I would see how this all plays out but if necessary I would consider a school move.

I think you'll be happier as a family if you move her in September to an independent school, if you can afford it. Forget about the sleepover now, it's done, and I don't think you'll win over that family even if you want to!

That would not be my advice

I think it's fair enough you don't want her to go to a sleepover and the present and apology were fine but you should have stopped after the first 'it's fine'. That is a huge cue that someone doesn't want to talk anymore and it's really annoying when someone pushes it. She is probably really embarrassed about not being up to your standards.

As for the argument with your husband, I think it's really strange how you describe the school but want her to stay there. You'd clearly feel more comfortable in private school, which is fine.

Massive bunch of for you, OP.

You have been given a really rotten time on this thread and, IMO, most unfairly.

I have had a similar situation although in reverse (DH wanted state despite having gone to one of the best private schools in the country himself and I wanted private). We started in the state system at primary, but ran into similar problems.

I refuse to accept that it is wrong and hateful to feel uncomfortable about allowing your DC to spend time/do a sleepover in an environment that you know will be unsuitable. If that is judgemental then so be it. All human beings make judgements all the time - about what to eat, what to read, who to be friends with. It is entirely normal.

The thing that makes it tougher is that it's not the fault of the poor DCs of this other family. Inviting them to yours for play overs is one way around it, but it is only a temporary measure; at some stage, your DC will be invited there and you can't claim to be busy 10 times in a row. I don't think there is a perfect way of handling the situation.

FWIW it sounds to me as if the current school isn't right for you or your DC. That is not to say there is anything intrinsically wrong with the school - but it isn't a good fit. I would advise you to look at the independent sector (they are not all full of ghastly entitled people) and also to see if there is any possibility of getting your DC in to a better local state school. Places do come up at weird times - it's worth checking.

But most of all, try not to feel bad. None of us handles every single situation perfectly and the apartheid-style education system in this country is horrendous. Trying to marry reality and values is a Hell of a struggle. You love your DC and are desperate to do the right thing. If that's your crime then I think you are in good company.

Good luck.

Hey guys
I don't mind independent education - I wanted her in a state school for primary school and private for secondary. That was our compromise we made as a couple. I agreed to it. I don't want to out my self but I really don't like the two independents which are close to us. There are loads of independents id love to send her to at 11+ when she is older and can make the journey alone.
I don't mind getting a tough time about things I actually said but im constantly reading my words being twisted out of context.
I posted because I wanted support.
I thought that's what MN was about to an extent.
I felt bad so I said sorry
I didn't want her child to feel alienated so I invited her around as MANY OF YOU SUGGESTED.
Thanks to everyone who has been nice - I don't mind criticism and it's the criticism I recieved yesterday that made me want to patch things up with this mum and not have her thinking my dd is better than hers. She isn't. Her dd is lovely which I have said a million trillion times. I'm just not comfortable with a sleepover. So what??? They can go to the cinema they can go ice skating they can have a playdate we can go to the park why must DD sleep in her home over night ? Where do these assumptions of that dd isn't allowed to be friends with this little girl or socialise with her come from ? I've said no such thing.
DH tried to make up this morning but my heart wasn't in it. DD does a lot of work with me at home and she is super smart. DH says it's not about that its about her being challenged in school no matter what her academic ability. He was super irritated that I used her being clever and doing well as an excuse to keep her in a state school. I agreed and said yes we will find a better school but I'd prefer state as we agreed -she can move on to a grammer or independent in y7!!!
He just isn't having it and for the first time our different backgrounds etc aren't something we are joking about but perhaps even fighting about. Makes me uneasy. I know this is about schooling but I can't help but think it's because we come from two different backgrounds -star kingly different. Both socially, economically and politically.

Re the mum, I think with the outcome (i.e. the swearing), you were right not to send your DD there but I can kind of see her point. After all, let's be honest, you didn't want your DD spending time around her and her family and would probably prefer your DD to have friends of a different class. I have also got this vibe from other parents and it's not nice. Saying that, I wouldn't tell them to fuck off - even under my breath.

Regarding the schooling, it's got to be an agreement, really. It sounds as if DH has taken this as an opportunity to railroad you into public schooling once again, which is not fair. My children both go to state schools (politically, I don't agree with private education but couldn't afford it anyway).

I also think that, since she is 9 now, you might as well finish where she is. They don't tend to push them in state junior but, in secondary, it's all systems go and that brings its own stresses with homework and the like. I do believe they should not be overly 'challenged' at this stage of their education. Obviously, you don't want them to fall behind either.

I also think, in the private sector, you are going to have your own problems with parents. Maybe different ones, I don't know, but there are plenty of threads about that, too. I also think it's a myth that the private sector is the seat of the middle classes. There are plenty of working class people with money.

What I'm also not getting from your post is how your DD feels about it all? Is she upset about this or is it you? If it's you, my view is that you must rise above it. Changing schools is a big upheaval (and she'll have another one soon anyway). My sister did it because of problems her DD was having and they just went with her so I would think about this very carefully.

I posted my situation unthread. Like you - our compromise was going to be state primary and then private secondary, but in the end we moved DC half way through primary. DH and I are a fabulous team and have a brilliant marriage. BUT - the only thing that really tested our relationship was differing views on education for the children; it became a nasty festering issue and went on like that until it was resolved. For us, that resolution was me finding an independent choice that we both liked. DH would now reluctantly admit that DC has flourished there and is much happier. But in a weird way ,I'd say the fact that we are no longer rowing and hand-wringing over the whole issue is just as big a positive.

Oh god, you poor thing. Forget it. What is done is done, and there was no malice in anything you did. It isn't like you were ever going to be best friends with this family anyway.

When dd was born I DH and I agreed - state school all the way. She is now 3 and at a kindergarten attached to a small independent school. Why? Well, it is pretty much the same price as the local nursery, but rather than playing all day they go swimming once a week, are taught so much, not just educationally but socially as well. She loves it. She'd outgrown the nursery and wasn't very happy there, but now she is very excited on 'school' days and can't wait to leave the house.

So, it is ok to change your mind if the alternative to your original choice is actually a better fit for your child.

Your DH may be a snob, or he may just be thinking the current school is rubbish, and you've fallen out with the other mums, so the other one might actually be better. My money is on the latter. In his shoes that's what I'd be thinking.

Chin up. It's crap, but it's only a school yard spat. There will probably be many more over the years

Can I ask why you are so fixated on a state school? (I'm assuming it's not finances). Also, do you believe that those reasons you had for choosing a state school have been justified by your experiences at your daughters school? Also, and I'm sorry to seem so inquisitive, but I think this is important to understand where you are at now, what is it you will look for in this new state school ?

Hi OP - Just to say that if she isn't being challenged now you may find the 11+ a real challenge. I don't know what part of the country you are in but it can be really tough and the amount of preparation is huge.

Personally I'd be looking at how many kids do well in the 11+ at the current school and factor that into my decision making. Lots of bright kids don't pass because they aren't prepared. If she's be one of a few doing it I'd really think hard about if it's the right school. The extra work is quite tough - much better if she's got friends doing it too.

My children are at state Primary and will be at Private Secondary. This is a purely financial decision, if we could afford Private for both at Primary that's where they would both be. Their state Primary is good and most of the parents are decent but there are some who I don't want to mix with nd who's houses my DC won't be going to for tea, let alone a sleepover. This is based purely on behaviour ( parents and children) NOT what they earn, how old they were when they had children and not their set up at home. Might make me a snob but I don't really care.
I'm not passionate about either state or private education, our children's schools were chosen as much as possible on what suits them best ( although finances have had to play a part too). IF you can find a Private school that would suit your child better and it's affordable then why the hell wouldn't you send your child?
My DH was anti Private education ( left wing middle class family) but he's now more for it than I am and I was Privately educated. It wasn't until he looked around a few Private schools and saw the difference in facilities, class sizes etc that he realised the advantages of it. He wants to move Ds to the prep at the school where DD will be going in September but I think financially it will be too much of a squeeze.
Op, WHY don't you want to send your child to Private school? If it is some sort of ideology then you are being very unfair to her. Choose the school that will be best for her, whether it's State or not.

Sometimes a person is patronising or utterly condescending and they have really no clue! Maybe the sense of superiority is so ingrained? Sorry if that makes you shudder but I have spotted a tendency there in myself before now . I know! Where the literal fuck does that come from?

But not such a bad thing if it's pointed out to you on an anonymous forum.

In terms of your fresh approach to the mum, hmm, are you a people pleaser do you think? Are you bending over backwards to make everyone approve of you? Are you carrying a quasi liberal banner as part of that?

Obviously no need to answer and I could be way off the mark. Anyway I'm sorry you feel shit. It all went a bit Pete Tong didn't it.

Frazzledazzled86
Read the thread. I was responding to someone to rehatched it from the previous thread. I'm fed up. I said sorry. 48387 times. I wrote a long essay about my dirt poor upbringing in the estate from hell. Then it was demolished and we were rehoused in an estate from luke warm hell. Many of my friends were teenage mums and I love their kids who call me aunty. DD sees them as her big cousins.

As for the comments about me wanting dd only around middle class kids thats bullshit. DD is very rarely around "posh kids" unless we are at a family function and she is playing with her cousins on her fathers side. In any case all kids are just kids. Perhaps their accents differ but I find they all the same no matter what class their parents are. You don't look at her cousins and think omg they are so posh. They are normal kids. I haven't said one bad word against the children in DDS school not one. She's never had any issues ever. And for the millionth time the DD of the mum I'm not fond of is the sweetest thing everyone adores her. I can't bear watching her being shouted at and smoked over.

SharonBottsPoundOfGrapes - You still get all this at private school Epony.

Yes, i imagine so. I didn't mean for it to look as if i was saying going to private school would prevent this. I meant it as a separate issue. I would if i could afford it.

Maybe any shite you got at the school gates would just seem a bit more worth it at a fabulous school

OP I haven't read any of this long, long thread. But it is never unreasonable to refuse to allow your child sleep over anywhere you aren't entirely comfortable. Children are very vulnerable at a sleep over - we only allow where we know the family and both parents well.

OP i think some posters here get it some don't. Sometimes there's no right and wrong and you just have to stand by your past decisions and your own feelings and get on with it.

For those posters who don't get it you're digging a bigger hole trying to explain (Been there )

Thing is she's going to be changing anyway at 11. Her friendships will change even though if she goes to the school her friends go to. My Dd is 11 and hers had. Hang in there because you'll hardly see any parents at all, which can bring it's own problems

Its

wheresthebeach
I'm prepping her how for the 11+ exams with bond papers etc she's doing well and will be fine. That's why I'm pissed at DH I really did compromise and am prepping her for 11+ so why can't he just leave it and support me finding a better state school ?

Your posts are too lengthy for me to get a handle of what the AIBU is to be honest, OP.

You've repeatedly said that you and your DH are from different backgrounds. That's not unusual. If you two still have 'I'm from a demolished estate' and 'I'm from a posh house' chips on shoulders and issues when you've been married for years and have kids together, then that seems a bit…I don't know, odd, I suppose.

I've genuinely lost sight of the main thrust of your post if I'm honest.

My DH had a state primary education and Independent secondary. On the basis of the gaps* in his education which have never been filled, he was adamant before we ever had kids that they would be privately educated from the start.

*Simply because different things were taught at different stages between state and independent sectors, not because his state school was utterly rubbish.

I have been state educated from nursery through to uni but not in the UK so I have [with reservations] agreed to this. My kids are thriving in a small independent school, but would in all likelihood thrive in the local state primary too. I do know that she wouldn't the same range of subjects, access to the same level of ICT or games facilities though.

I'll never know if it is money down the drain but there are small things that make life easier for two parents working FT. Good wrap around care at the school, lots of clubs and extra stuff like music tuition available on site so that we can selfishly keep the weekends free just for us as a family. Most if not all the parents are on a similar wavelength in terms of discipline, food, attitude to school rules and regs, requests to delouse your kids hair are promptly dealt with and people are always pleasant to each other. In my experience over 4 years so far.

Try to keep an open mind about it.

Finally, the two of you should sit down and agree to divorce discussions about schooling from how you feel about his Disney parenting/unfair division of household chores.

why can't he just leave it and support me finding a better state school

Are there localish Independent options that go straight into second level? So you and more importantly your daughter could completely avoid the 11+ ? That's been a massive attraction for me not to have that level of pressure at that age.