(UPDATE) Am I a bitch? I don't want DD sleeping over with these people!

[thenappyslayer]

Original thread - www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2623701-Am-I-a-bitch-I-dont-want-DD-sleeping-over-with-these-people?noti=1#60728941

So sorry for the essay but I'm so upset.

Do I like the fact that the kids are dirty, the dad is a borderline bully and the mum smokes around the DCs No? But that doesn't mean she is evil or doesn't have feelings and I do owe her an apology. I should have been (sort of) honest as many of you suggested and said we don't do sleep overs at other peoples homes. Just because I don't want DD sleeping over doesn't mean our kids can't have some fun. Today after school I gave DD a little pressie and card for the DC this post is about, hoping that would be the beginning of a peace offering. DD was excited and ran up to the other DC and gave it to her. Whilst they were having a little natter I took the opportunity to grab the mum for a quick apology - and to propose a sleep over at mine in a few weeks to make up for it.

I was well aware it could look like "Your home isn't good enough my my DD but my home is good enough for your DD" but to be frank as DDs mother I do have real concerns about this lady's current home life and don't feel comfortable. I think that's fair. As soon as I started speaking she was cutting me off with "it's fine" every five seconds - she wasn't being aggressive (I wasn't threatened ) but she was very snappy and rude. By this time our DC's were by us again and I didn't want the DCs to see the tension so I said "sorry again, but lets please try and work something out". As I started to walk away I heard "fuck off" under her breath and she started snapping at her two DCs who as I mentioned before are the most quiet little kids you will ever meet. She was rushing them to zip up their coats and hold on to the pram really harshly. I naturally turned around at the "fuck off" and when she started snapping I did frown (I noticed a dad behind her looking too) and she snapped at me again but only said "WHAT?" It easily could have been missed in a busy playground - nothing to call the police over - but it made me uneasy not only for me but for her DC's so I literally shook my head and walked off. It takes a bit to get out of the playground as the exit is a little on the small side and prams etc have to get through and I could hear her behind me going off and having a rant.

I'm not superwoman and didn't look back but she was upset about a fake bitch giving her looks (me) and some drama with her mum. Everyone around us could hear her and DD was getting anxious so I refused to look back and just got straight into the car.

Got home and told DH about what happened when he got in. It's not a big deal in the grander scheme of what life's about but it set off this huge fucking fight about moving DD to a different school.

I wont bore you with ten more paragraphs but DH was leaning towards prep school and I wanted her in state. Even when we didn't get our first choice of primary school I stuck to my guns and sent her to this one which at the time was rated "good" by OFSTED but has issues in the past. 31 kids in her class, unchallenging homework and two horrible teachers later and DH has had enough after what I told him went down after school. He knows this from my feedback and having a sweeping look at DDs homework and asserting it's too easy. Fair enough. It is. Okay then. I said what I saw to be the most rational thing at the time; "lets have another word with the teacher about homework and I'll give the other schools in the area a call"

He got really irritated and said I've had my way now I should just let it go and have her do 10+. I said we've already been to a couple of open days and I didn't like the vibe. I just didn't. I don't want her going too far before Y7 so we have a limited choice of independent schools.

The argument escalated and consisted of:

Me saying he is barely home, gets to sweep DD off her feet at 7:30pm every evening and be fun superdad while I'm flustered moany mum! I'm the one who does the hard shit (homework, school run, playdates, cooking, washing, after school clubs etc) and he gets to tuck her in and play with her on the weekends while I slave over dishes and hoover. He isn't even that involved in her school life (not as much as me) so what's wrong with me taking the lead with certain choices? Such as schooling?

Him saying he works really hard and does it all for us - why am I making him feel guilty for supporting us. What's wrong with him having quality time with DD when he gets in.

Me getting really angry because even though I don't do the crazy 70 hour weeks I used to, I do still take on a projects that can accommodate my home life. And no I'm not minted like him and his fucking family but my job isn't less than because I've cut down.

Him saying he didn't mean it like that

Me saying he did

Him saying I have something against independent schools and it's dramatic faux liberal crap

Him saying I think he's a snob and I'm missing the point. It's not about me thinking the schools are a bit elitist and lame, it's about DD's education.

DD was upstairs in her room probably heard the whole thing I'm disgusted at myself and pray she was fast asleep.

It was petty - but a little on vicious side and he has never ever spoken to me like this.

I'm downstairs and don't want to go to bed.

After being called a snob yesterday on MN its ironic that at home I get into a RL argument with DH because he thinks I think HE'S a snob.

I feel like such shit. Such shit.

From that mum being nasty in front of everyone at school to DH being pissed at me - this is a shitty evening. Just want to disappear.

AppleSetsSail
To be really honest (which I shouldn't because everyone is going to flame me but oh well )
Where I come from was fundamentally good enough for me. Yes , a small minority of the estate made it hell for everyone else , yes a small minority of disruptive kids made it disruptive for everyone else in school but despite this I have a great affinity for my background and my dear dear friends who may get an eyebrow raise. There are plenty of working class people who may not have a lot of money or the best education but are the most kind smart reliable witty and loyal people you will ever ever meet! My friends are a prime example of this.

I can't lie. A tiny bit of me feels as though I'm being a cringey social climber by sending her private when there are perfectly good state schools.

OK well I understand how that might be uncomfortable, but you have got to find a way to make peace with the fact that your daughter's upbringing is different from yours.

I don't mean to be harsh but you're making it far worse with all your hand-wringing. The people who matter won't care. You have to get over it.

I come from a working class background too, my father was a clock / watch repairer and mother worked in a sewing factory and then in the sewing alteration room of a department store. It really isn't a problem for me to send my daughter to private school - its about what suits her. I don't understand why you are so resistant to it.

What's wrong with finding a good state school?

Nothing but perhaps he can't be arsed with the prospect of "prepping" his child(ren) their entire lives and simply wants to take the easier route of sending your child somewhere where that problem simply goes away? Maybe like many people he has been molded by his own experience and simply wants the best education and educational environment for his child.

The key issue is whether your DD would thrive at an independent prep. If money is not an issue and it would suit her then it's a no brainer for me. Most independent schools are not the Eton's of my imagination where kids are dropped off in luxe cars and spend their summers at their chalets/villas in luxe locations.

Personally if my spouse and child had been subjected to an aggressive atmosphere in the playground over a declined invitation to a sleepover then I would honestly be genuinely concerned.

TreadSoftlyOnMyDreams
You're right, it just pissed me off that DH and I had an agreement of state primary private secondary and it bothers me that he doesn't take our compromise seriously. I agreed with him and said she can move to her first choice if they will accomodate us. If they can't we will take it from there.
Despite digging myself out of poverty I don't resent where I am from nor do I feel it's an inferior environment for DD. I was in LOVE with our first choice but knew chances were slim due to the sibling policy they operate. Many people didn't get their first choice that year and it's even worse now!!!

I hear you. My outstanding local primary has a catchment area of 200m which we reside just within but year on year it fluctuates by a few metres. It doesn't have a nursery so we went independent for that as it was free to us anyway [bargain!] and as it turned out the catchment then went down to 50m the year that DC1 would have entered due to the sibling policy and local baby boom.

I appreciate how it must sit with you. I am very nervous about raising entitled children who take their privileged position for granted and who mix only with children with similar or even more privileged lifestyles. It's has thankfully been a very good experience thus far. Most parents are pushed financially to meet the fees and many children are paid for by grandparents. When they move to second level the bursaries kick in and I've seen a much more mixed group of students on open days so that's also reassuring me. Slightly

Go and see the schools. A good one will send you around the school with one or two pupils to give you the tour so that's a useful guide. "Do I want my child to be like this one?"

hmcAsWas I'm not resistant or against private school. I just want dd to experiance both, like many posters here. Also DH and I agreed so I'm pissed at him not supporting our compromise. My parents were so poor they could not even spare the money for the admin fees for me to take the test for a scholarship. My violin lessons were discounted as a favour to my mum by my teacher who was already pretty cheap. My mum still worked extra to pay for it.She taught me for 13 years and now teaches DD it actually gets me really emotional. My parents aren't anti private school and very much wished they could have sent me.

The thing is your DD goes to that school with that demographic. When you choose a school for your child surely you take these things into account and decided whether you are happy with it?

Why send your child to a state school that has a high proportion of families with completely different parenting backgrounds and ideas to you?

You dd is old enough to have a sleep over somewhere and decide for herself whether she feels uncomfortable there.

I agree that their parenting sounds less than ideal from your description BUT what do you think would happen to her if she stayed there? She might be quite happy, she might hate it and never want to go back but at least she has made that choice. I think it is really important not to cocoon children.

Here's a funny / ironic one :

On the estate there was a family. The mum and dad were pastors who had a vision from God to give up all their money and live with the poor. Seriously. They gave away millions. They used to preach in the estate community centre. Mum had them round being the nosey Parker she is and nearly vomitted when they showed us pictures of their old massive house in Enfield and their holidays etc. They used to blow them up and put them on pickets with evil written across it when they preached on the street. Everyone literally wanted to kill them.

I'm not surprised. The were bonkers. I would want to kill them too. How stupid.

You sound just like one of my frirnds, state school was good enough for her and left her able to get along with a broad spectrum of people, she has done well, and thinks her DS will do well too. Are you worried your own DD might look down on you? Are you looking for a connection between the two of you that you don't have with your DH? Do you want her to have contact wih your orgins, albeit in a less 'rough' manner?

But she is NOT doing well in her state school - what happens if you move her to a state school, and that school doesn't work out, will you move her AGAIN?

If pippa had a child this is what the thread would look like..

Look, you're not being a cringey social climber!

You're wading into uncharted territory in DDs schooling and you and DHs perceptions of class and money.

It's tricky stuff and actually, I think you need to stop apologising, going overboard in one direction than the other. I don't think any of that is a sign of snobbery/reverse snobbery, more that you are rudderless and trying to please everyone when the everyone doesn't actually matter!

Forgot all the other shite and focus on your Dd.

She is not having the same school experience as you did. You don't have to channel your identity and background through her, and nor does DH. Forget all that stuff, just look at your dd and what is best for her ... Where can she have a good education and social development? That's it.

Btw, I still think you are missing the point with the other mother thing. You said people on the other thread told you to have her Dd round so you did? But can't you see the difference between a play date and a sleep over I this situation? Play date = nice, sleep over = incendiary comment!!!

People can say 'oh lord that went sooo wrong' in a supportive way you know.

This just shows how all over the place you are if you go from one extreme to the next.

The mum sounds unpleasant and I have no idea why you wanted to appease her in the first place! She doesn't parent in a great way and is fuelling bitchiness in her adult school mates... Not seeing a situation where a grand gesture will help here, and not seeing why you'd even want to. What happened to neutral smiles and hellos?

And also, the 'less is more' approach where you keep all the angst and decisions inside, and keep the polite and sensible comments outside.

With someone who's already sensitised to you and you feeling you've already come across wrong, re-engaging in a big whoosh of a complete turnaround just shows her that there IS definitely a problem, you ARE definitely judging her and then you are BEGGING forgiveness?!

Nah, doesn't help, unless this comedy of errors is happening to someone more secure and with a spark of compassion who will relate making fuck ups like this and you'd bond over it.

But, do you think this mum is that sort of person?! I'm thinking not, and giving her gifts (aka waving money in her face), and sleepovers (aka my dd is too good for your sleepover situation but you're can come to mind to experience the good life!) ... Shudder!

This is part of the reason why you need to settle down and stop flailing around panicking and making things worse. You need to find your own opinion sand centre on this. Not over react to external stuff.

So this is some advice worth listening to (honest guv!). Stop looking and listening to everybody else, stop rushing around appeasing here there and everywhere! Have a glass of wine, and quite possibly cake too, and focus inwards. Give yourself a big pat on the back for being a nice person, and having made a good life for dd. Stop feeling guilty!

And have a lovely bank holiday.
Think about what matters to you, not in relation to offending others or betraying your past, just, what matters now to you and DDs schooling.

Good luck.

bigbuttons they had 3 kids and the oldest was 17 when they arrived. That poor girl. I remember she was chased by a pit bull in her levis and Dr Martins that cost a weeks rent she did stay in her 6th form though. Brought friends over who were mugged on thier way in to the estate.

AnotherCiderPlease
Yes !!!!!! That's exactly how I feel ! You said it better than me

Then, in the nicest possible way, because i get that its hard, get over yourself! This isn't about you its about your DD. Stop looking at prep school for your DD as a rejection of you. Look at it solely frm the point of view of what is best for her.

Your husband may feel the same as you but in reverse, you worry that he loves you despite the state education he could feel, 'what is wrong with me that makes you feel that a private primary education is terrible'.

If you don't like the feel of the private primary schools but like the private secondary, have you considered that most of the kids going to the private secondary will have come from the nearby private primary's? Your daughter will be mixing with the same people (or perhaps a good portion) of those at the private primary's. Maybe if she went to the prep school now it's an easier transition than when she's older? I understand the frustration at DH not wanting to stick to the compromise, but if it's not working, try the prep? FWIW, my kids are at private and while you might look at it and think it looks like a huge posh place full of toffs, the reality is the vast majority are normal working parents just wanting the best for their kids.

OP: there's nothing wrong with finding a good state school, but good state schools are bloody hard to come by! And have huge waiting lists.

Seriously, go private. My daughter is at a private school after starting off in state. her state school was outstanding, but she got a full scholarship to the private school so she moved. Don't worry about her moving school only to move again in a couple of years time. kids move all the time in private education. my daughter's class has had 4 new girls come into it in the space of 2 terms. The parents at the school are entirely normal - yes, there's a few yummy mummies who seem to flit from coffee to lunch to gym etc, but most of us work and juggle multiple kids, childcare etc. You'll find it an awful lot more relaxing not having to pick up the slack of the underperforming school your daughter is at now, by constantly "prepping" her.

Don't sacrifice your daughter's education with a "well, it was good enough for me" attitude. Becasue that school clearly isn;t good for her.

Obviously what Anothercider said resonated. I was wondering if you felt it might seem like a rejection of your parents and what they did for you. What you said about your mother and the violin lessons was very touching. I wonder if it would help to remind your parents (and you!) that so much of how you turned out is thanks to them and their fabulous parenting. So it's not all about school - so much is the home environment and the views and values one absorbs there. In the same way, your daughter would still have you 'in her' if that makes sense - even if she goes to some v. middle-class private school.

I get what you mean about feeling that your husband has reneged on his part of the state primary/private secondary bargain. I did the same thing in reverse to my husband and I think he felt pretty sore about it too, initially. But once he saw our DC happier and fitting in better he calmed down. Also, your DD has already spent several years at a state primary so will have absorbed a lot of the good stuff (realising the world isn't made up of over-priviledged people who go skiing every year etc.). My husband's political views haven't changed, but the compromise did end up working better for us as a family and the constant tension has gone.

However, despite our DCs now being at private school, we still influence them hugely. We watch documentaries, talk politics, call out entitlement when we see it etc. I have explained that lots of people disapprove of us precisely because we have opted to go private and tried to go through all the reasons and show how complicated it is.

Sorry for such a long one - just want to reassure you that you won't loose your connection with your DD if she goes private and that you won't have sold out. It's all so much more nuanced than that. I really do wish you all the best. Please don't beat yourself up for a) caring about your daughter's education; and b) having social principles.

any high ground that mother had about the perceived snub of her sleepover was lost the second she swore and then mouthed off.

She was lucky you only shook your head at her. She justified every reservation you ever had right there.

You're lucky, you have a choice to change the situation and make it better for your dd, grab that opportunity with both hands and don't give any of the a moments further thought.

I hope the situation ends now, but if it doesn't, just say you're not going to discuss anything further and the subject is closed. It's not long until the end of term, you may even get into another school in the meantime.

Is the OP's earlier thread and this 'Update' a blatant attempt at being the next DM story?

It ticks almost every box. If the OP could confirm the market value of her home, that would most considerate

Good sad face potential too.

There's something so embarrassingly self indulgent about getting an absolute pasting one your previous thread then coming back to update your audience with the next part of the saga.

As far as this mum is concerned, your DD was originally not coming because she was with grandparents, then because you don't do sleepovers, then actually you do but only at your house. You made it very obvious that she and/or her DP were the issue. Also worth considering she may be on MN and her 'fuck off' was a very refrained reaction to seeing your opinion of her in detail.

Do yourself a favour and reread all of your comments on this thread and the last one. Pretend someone else wrote them and think about how that person comes across. It makes for quite painful reading.

I'm just being honest and providing context . People called me a snob so I said hold on I'm far from it. People asked about DHs background so I was honest. The fact that he does come from money does make me feel uncomfortable sometimes and I feel it plays a huge role in the tension we are feeling right now. Thanks to everyone who gets where I am coming from and who can relate. thank for those who nicely and normally called me out on where I went wrong without being trolls. I posted because I genuinley wanted a little bit of support. Everyone deserves support that's what MN was meant to be about. Anyway dd isnt home and DH is on his way I'm dreading it but . I hope we squash it and enjoy our child free Friday. I may even throw in a shag if he's lucky.
Thanks everyone xoxox

Playing catch-up here, just read your thread (and read original thread) and all I could think at the end of it was 'and breathe'. Don't let your loyalty to your roots (which sound much like mine) blind you to any opportunity to give did the best you can. My dad's other half is in the services and often away, and did sees him as the 'fun person' but anything serious and she wants her mum. (Chickenpox!).

Enjoy your child-free time, I hope you get to kiss and make up. And btw, I wouldn't have let my dad sleep over in an environment that was so disturbing to me.