To be concerned about my intelligent child at school

[Moomoomango]

This is not a boasting post before I get accused! I am struggling with his intelligence not basking in parental glory!

My son is 4 and due to start school in September. He started talking at 8 months, and has never stopped. He is intelligent and head strong, the last 2 days he started to ask about house numbers - within about 10 minutes he had learnt how to recognise numbers up to 100. I've never tried to teach him more than 10 but I was amazed how quickly he absorbed the information. He is really into science and loves discussing ideas such as gravity, electricity, marine life (a particular passion). He loves doing experiments and will quite often talk about gasses such as carbon dioxide. He loves to dissect fish (one of his fave things to do is buy a fish at fish counter) or garden insects to inspect their insides etc. He will quite confidently explain the anatomy of a fish. I am by no means a pushy parent I just answer his questions and follow his lead.

He is thoroughly bored at pre school, the activities as much more directed at younger children, I feel. I went in today and he was just sat twiddling an abacus. He tells me it's boring and he hates it. Pre school say hes withdrawn and not engaged.

I was speaking to a ta friend of mine who said foundation is basically an extension of pre school, lots of play etc. I'm really worried he will become withdrawn from school if it's not stimulating him. I want him to enjoy school and feel happy and confident. Aibu to be concerned? Is foundation very basic in terms of learning? Or will they support very intelligent children? I'm purposefully holding him back from learning to read so that school can inspire him in that way but to be honest he's so close it's painful!

I just want my child to be supported to be who he is.

I read your post and while your son can recognise numbers to 100 and showing an interest in reading this is not unusual for this age group. At this age there is a wide variety of ability from children missing out the odd number when counting to children like my own son at that age who could add and takeaway small numbers and recognise numbers to 100. Now they are all in year 3 that gap is less obvious and many of those who struggled have now passed my son. Children learning goes in spurts and stops. What Im saying is don't label your son as some kind of genius at 4 when in reality he us well within what's considered normal.

Twiddling abacus might not be boredom.

I would never diagnose ASD online, or anywhere, but that could be a self stimulating behaviour.

Actually sorry to piss on your parade but I taught myself to read off the back of the bleach bottles in our bog aged two and I used to read the names in the phone book....my parents couldn't have been less interested (she tells the stories in a 'wannabe was a real odd ball' type way)
I used to read a book a day at school... I was labeled a liar until I explained the stories....
I know some people will be pfb and 'Isn't Algernon wonderful' but on the odd occasion they might be right....

A child sitting withdrawn and twiddling something and not interacting with others would raise a bit of a red flag for me. Sorry OP

My son taught himself to read using cbeebies I player and subtitles. Didn't realise until we saw a sign at Center Parcs at 3 and he read the whole thing. Asked him how he knew the words and he said "CBeebies teached me"!!!

'Normal' behaviours span a wide spectrum. All behaviours are 'normal' to an individual but some don't meet the social norm. Some people cannot adapt their behaviour to the situation at what's described as a clinical level and they are the ones who are diagnosed as neurodevelopmentally diverse or delayed or disordered or whatever they use nowadays.

I'd honestly just watch him for now. It's clear he has difficulties interacting but they may come. It may be his focus on what he wants to the extent yiu describe has just left little time and interest for interaction and eventually he'll start doing it and enjoying the rewards it's brings. Also as his brother starts getting older he may interact with him and learn that way.
As for the 'need' to do his thing. Have you thought of using visual timetables? Help him understand that's it's X then y then z. Perhaps after dinner have a choice section that he can out the activity in he just has to do - so he can c,early see he can get it done and when.

I repeat what I said before - speak to his teacher, express your concerns and ask her if there's anything yiu can do and ask them to monitor and report any concerns they have to you. Sometimes schools take the wait and watch approach and don't feel comfortable telling a parent their child is presenting unusual behaviours - if you get there first they are more likely to feel able to be open and honest with you.

Wannabe stress free; same happens to my 5 yr old. They don't believe he can read a whole book overnight so make him take the book back for 2 nights.

Swiggity-mine did! I was a ridiculously stretched working mother with 2 boys 2 years apart. I was guilty of benign neglect and DS2 ( who was 2) was very good at entertaining himself. The nursery workers asked me if we had certain books, because they'd noticed that every time new books were ordered, DS would read them aloud. At the same time, at home, I noticed DS reading cereal packets, the small print on toy boxes and books. He was 2 years and 9 months at the time.

It's not at all clear he has issues you. Not every child will be engaged at preschool all the time-doesn't have to mean a thing. And if the mum has a genuine concern (we can't know so it's up to her) doing nothing but waiting is actually a really crap idea.

This is where the internet becomes dangerous-rubbish advice from random strangers who don't know what they're talking about.

Back in the 80s, my DB taught himself to read by watching blockbusters . He was 3.

I taught myself to read/ write and speak Italian at the age of 7. I don't think I'm extra special. I haven't got a university degree and I'm now a full time psychic.
Think his love for learning is great but I agree with other pp who say that he needs to be at school for his social development.

Don't push him to go up a year. He needs time to mature, however clever he is. If he skips a year somewhere, he will later on (and it could be much later on) need a year out to catch up. DM was a teacher and had an extraordinarily clever boy come to school. He had built a working radio at 3, could read joined up handwriting upside down at 5 and has gone on to have an amazing career in the sciences. He was fortunate to be in my DM's small school and he was just handed the following year's work when he had completed that year's, but he stayed with his age mates throughout school, and it benefited his maturity greatly. He did go to the teacher on his first day in primary 1 (Scotland) and say 'Can I have something interesting to do now, please?'

Keep encouraging your child, but he needs this time at pre-school, bored or not.

As a reception teacher and mother of a child who sounds very similar to yours. I would say, that a good foundation stage classroom should offer lots of open ended investigative activities and should allow your son to follow his own interests. But more importantly, I feel for our children, it should develop their social skills and interactions with others. Maybe use this year to focus on social skills, interactions with others and making friendships. Unfortunately, academic success doesn't guarantee happiness in life. Studies have shown, good social skills play a far larger part in success, happiness, life satisfaction and eventually career progression than exam passes!

How odd that it seems most think clever children are socially lacking.

As any gifted reader would comprehend from this thread, the inference tends to be pushy parents making bright children feel awkward. Not the kids: the situations they are placed in.
The evidence being first hand/anecdotal.

There is NO REASON why bright children must be socially lacking, as you put it bar that, as some have pointed out, some parents like the kudos of having the different, eccentric, prodigal child in a different, private, older school.

I'm wondering whether the resistance to this non-G&T bit of GCSE level inference is down to slight denial about how questionable it is to hot house a kid at the first sign of brightness, regardless of their age and social skills.
Speaking as someone formerly of that situation, with one parent who wanted a 'magical Matilda' type mysterious genius child, above such things as play ... I'm exceedingly glad my other parent won.
It was pre MN but they were accused of holding me back etc. In a PP I explain it did not - in fact I have an identical 'on paper' CV to other bright relatives who were hot-housed, but (subjectively) I'm happier and more robust.

How odd that it seems most think clever children are socially lacking

I don't think that happens at 4yo, but there are choices/ priorities and if parents prioritise academics over anything else, it is likely to become this way by 8,9,10. Partly this is because of a distance with peers, and if parents find no common interest, such as football, the distance increases.

My ds2 really surprised my Prof Uncle by being really into bodybuilding (when he was 5!) and requesting a book of exercises for Christmas. This is my dh's influence otherwise ds2 (with different influences) could be requesting books about volcanoes and physics. I am really grateful he has been encouraged to be into other things too. Not that this will help socialisation, but I just think it makes kids more able to relate to all sorts of people in the longer term. There is plenty of time to specialize when you are older, but exposing kids to all sorts when they are young helps them to be rounded, as well as the opportunity to find their own interests.

What do you call got housing though??
Is it giving to the child information as they go along, letting watch programs directed towards adults (ie complex) or is it making them sit down to do exercise after exercise?
whats wrong about talking to your dcs about what you know yourself? Should I, as an engineer, hold back in my knowledge of chemistry because it's specialising them too early? But DH is OK to talk about our mining industry and steam engines because that doesnt look as bad? (Just like it's ok for a 4yo to be into bodybuilding but not so good to learn about physics)

And I'm not even going into cultural differences. If I had done with my dcs what they do at preschool in my own country, people would be up in arms. I have big regrets not to have done that though. Not for the 'being ahead of the others' bit. I couldnt care less about that. But they did some work that would have benefitted both dcs (writing clearly, spellings and sounds etc).

Of things were as easy as 'don't push them' and 'take them to play dates' there wouldnt such a high incidence of MH issue within highly able teenagers. There wouldn't be so many of them that give up and fuck their exams up.
It's always very easy to give advice when you or your dc have turned well.
When you deal with one of those dcs who are wasting their potential, struggle to fit in etc, it's a very different kettle of fish.

MerryMarigold EXACTLY.

I had a parent who push push pushed the 'academic' and 'eccentric' like some kind of high IQ hipster ('ugh... no mainstream'). Things on the banned list included the band Bros outs my age which, to my frustration was a complete double standard as my sister WAS allowed to be mainstream. I had to be a bit 'indie' (I don't know if it was called that back then, but you get the idea). I was a primary school age girl - of COURSE I wanted plastic pop, especially as I was also a twin.

My other parent - much more chilled. Tutored me in languages, did daytrips etc etc, but also saw no reason why I shouldn't go to Tammy Girl or play on my BMX at the local rec.

And that's wo talking about the fact that not all schools are up to dealing with bright kids.
3 schools in and none of them have ever mentioned anything like a G&T program. Despite dc1 been in the top 1 to 5% of his year and several years ahead. Not one have given him work at his level (I have been told it was too hard as he would have needed someone to teach him individually)

Saying that anyway the school will adapt to the dc abilities is in my experience a dream.

(Just like it's ok for a 4yo to be into bodybuilding but not so good to learn about physics)

Yes, I think if everything in a child's life is about academic learning then there is a problem. It's all very cerebral and there is not enough balance.

I did consider private schooling for ds2, but I haven't as a) didn't think it good for the whole family dynamic even if it may challenge HIM more and lead him down a more academic route and b) don't actually believe the focus-on-academics route is necessarily the best thing for him. Or indeed, any child.

Sometimes, with threads like these, I can wonder if I have held him back. I do believe he would have been more academically challenged elsewhere. But he is very happy, challenged enough, has a broad range of interests and good friends, and we have enough problems with the dynamic between ds1 and ds2 (ds2 can be very arrogant and constantly correct ds1) without adding to it.

There's so many considerations in these things, but it is everyone's prerogative to choose what they prioritise. My priority is my family unit, as well as helping my children to become empathetic, hard working and generous.

whats wrong about talking to your dcs about what you know yourself? Should I, as an engineer, hold back in my knowledge of chemistry because it's specialising them too early? But DH is OK to talk about our mining industry and steam engines because that doesnt look as bad? (Just like it's ok for a 4yo to be into bodybuilding but not so good to learn about physics)

I think you've misunderstood the point there. People weren't saying bodybuilding is good and physics is bad.
People were relaying their experiences of ONLY being exposed to the very academic and being 'hot housed'. This 100% isn't never letting able children do academically challenging things.

And it's not 'easy' if you turned out well. I have anxiety - re-read my posts and use a little again not super intelligence level inference: does that battle of wills sound like a fun childhood to you?

I'm going to say something frank now: one of the difficulties is when teachers AND PARENTS are less astute and naturally analytical than the kids themselves. The kids aren't listened to. Choices are made which are not only poor but analysed as poor by the little person who wouldn't normally realise.
That pretty much sums up how I ended up anxious and stressed as a kid.

My parent would have reacted like "are you saying Mozart and Dylan are BAD?? She should only listen to BROS??" which of course noone was fucking saying at all. But I couldn't protest in those terms.

YANBU to worry about your child, but my 2.5 year old recognises numbers and letters. On the other hand, I have a four year old with autism who has 'passions' for things that four year olds are normally not too interested in. He also loves to dissect things, but more like electrical or lego. He can build a Lego set for age 9 after briefly glancing at the leaflet. Yours sons lack of social skills are the real issue, not the intelligence. Intelligence will take him far whether it is picked up by the school or not, you encouraging all of these specific behaviours is the best thing for him. I would say that having been through the process, and having met lots of autism families along the way, that an autism diagnosis is not out of the question and that you should ask to see someone about it ASAP. Read up on it and do the online tick box tests too, to gauge whether you yourself think it's a possibility, so that you know in your own mind if it's likely - as you may well be fobbed off by the GP. To me, just from reading the first post, he is showing classic signs. Withdrawn, not engaged, specific/peculiar interests, and lack of social skills. I'm sorry if it sounds a bit dramatic to throw in ASD on a mumsnet post, but honestly, the earlier you know it's autism (if that's what it is) then the earlier you can start building on their strengths and addressing the areas in which they struggle.

margewiththebluehair Thu 28-Apr-16 17:23:56

"I agree that socialisation is important, but for some kids they just don't want to. This could be their nature or aspergers/autism. "

To me, this is very similar to physical exercise: some children take to it like ducks to water, some are naturally very good at it, others would rather never have anything to do with it.

For a healthy child, the best answer is not to say "oh, you don't like this, but you are so good at something else that it is better to concentrate on that". They are going to need a fit, healthy body in order to make a success of the rest of life. So you gently try to encourage them find a way for them to engage which makes it easy and (relatively) attractive and then you expect them to do it.

Same with maths: if you have a child who struggles with basic maths, the answer is not to let them do something else that they enjoy more, but to help them as much as you can to access the skills they are going to need.

In the same way, if you have a child without SN but who is naturally shy, the kind thing to do would seem to be to gently introduce them to activities which might help socialisation and to teach them a few tricks to interact with other people. You encourage them and praise them for any effort and keep reassuring them that they will master this skill. Just as if they had been struggling with writing or maths. (This is what I wish my parents had done for them, and what I have tried to do for my dc).

Obviously, if you have a child with a disability, you have to make allowances for that disability and make sure that any exercise is on their terms, if it is possible at all, and that you make use of any aids they may need. In the same way, if you have a child with SN such as Asperger's, then any socialisation is going to have to be on their terms. But it will still be beneficial for them to be given any help they can access and taught any tricks that will make it easier for them.

My ds struggled both with basic maths/reading/writing and with interacting with other children during primary school. He was given support on both counts and I am equally grateful for both.

Sorry, I just realised that I used "healthy" when talking of the opposite to physically able in a way that might make people believe I think of "healthy" as the opposite to being on the autistic spectrum. Which of course I do not; that would be bizarre. It just felt odd to write NT in the first part of my post as I was thinking of the kind of child who might e.g. be in a wheelchair due to illness. It did not refer to the second part of my post.

The thing about him wanting to do things now, even if you're doing the tea and he's got another activity in mind, is your need to set boundaries, especially as his brother gets older. No, you're not doing craft now, put it away and look, you can lay the table with mummy but you will put the craft things out of reach if he ignores you.

flyingscotsman Totally agree with every word. I have a highly able DS who washes dishes for a living.
We did have g & t program but it didn't really go far enough. High school (private) was better for a while but the last 2 years were very difficult. He literally couldn't see the point of studying things he has no interest in.

Has taught himself loads of things. He's now a very well read kitchen hand. It's ok because he's happy, but it wasn't always like that. He was suicidal at 10. He had drug problem, smoked heaps of weed as it made him feel normal. All much better now he's in his 20's.

He also taught himself to read very early on (about 3 1/2 to 4) I didn't realise how switched on he was until much later.

I would be concerned about mainstream schooling, with no special intervention with a very bright child. And get testing early on so you know the extent (although it usually changes)