To be concerned about my intelligent child at school

[Moomoomango]

This is not a boasting post before I get accused! I am struggling with his intelligence not basking in parental glory!

My son is 4 and due to start school in September. He started talking at 8 months, and has never stopped. He is intelligent and head strong, the last 2 days he started to ask about house numbers - within about 10 minutes he had learnt how to recognise numbers up to 100. I've never tried to teach him more than 10 but I was amazed how quickly he absorbed the information. He is really into science and loves discussing ideas such as gravity, electricity, marine life (a particular passion). He loves doing experiments and will quite often talk about gasses such as carbon dioxide. He loves to dissect fish (one of his fave things to do is buy a fish at fish counter) or garden insects to inspect their insides etc. He will quite confidently explain the anatomy of a fish. I am by no means a pushy parent I just answer his questions and follow his lead.

He is thoroughly bored at pre school, the activities as much more directed at younger children, I feel. I went in today and he was just sat twiddling an abacus. He tells me it's boring and he hates it. Pre school say hes withdrawn and not engaged.

I was speaking to a ta friend of mine who said foundation is basically an extension of pre school, lots of play etc. I'm really worried he will become withdrawn from school if it's not stimulating him. I want him to enjoy school and feel happy and confident. Aibu to be concerned? Is foundation very basic in terms of learning? Or will they support very intelligent children? I'm purposefully holding him back from learning to read so that school can inspire him in that way but to be honest he's so close it's painful!

I just want my child to be supported to be who he is.

Your ds sounds like a lovely bright little boy. My ds1 is bright i think but not super intelligent or anything. He is very imaginative and creative, also very sociable (more so than us!). June born. By this stage of pre school he was bored to and he went into a state reception class which was mainly play based and just about 20-30mins structured stuff each morning and afternooon. he wasn't too happy snd kept complaining school was dull and the same all the time so we moved him after 2 terms to a local independent school which has a much more structured approach. He immediately absolutely thrived and has loved it since. He is probably in the lower half academically but loves the borad range of subjects and opportunities and seems to like the different lessons, subject teachers etc. That approach isnt for all i know, and play based eyfs seemed ideal for most but it didnt work too well for us unfortunately. YOur ds may well be absolutely fine -don't worry and see what happens. You can always come up with a plan B if needed!

All schools have a Gifted and Talented programme and your child could have work that is differentiated or he could be accelerated (moved up a year) in some schools. I was an 'accelerated' child many moons ago.

There are organisations that can offer you advice- [[www.potentialplusuk.org] and you are right to take his possible high IQ seriously. Some bright kids are lost in the system and do worse ultimately than children with learning difficulties, due to being bored. There is a lot of evidence around this. I did some work with the above organisation some years ago.

The potential issue is that children who are very bright can still be age-appropriate emotionally, so bear that in mind.

Good luck!

I never post stuff just lurk on threads but this one really piqued my interest because I pulled my son out of state primary school after 4 miserable years. Yes of course he will learn things at school but if he's not happy you won't be either and it will be an enourmous drain of energy on you all.

Look at all your options locally including home ed'ing, there are loads of local groups so it's not a solitary experience. Make sure your partner, if you have one is on board with what direction to take so you are all in agreement as a family.

School takes up such a huge part of their childhood. My son was so miserable for many reasons now he thinks school is marvellous and fun and it's like I have different child in the house and I feel like a better mum.

can't speak for other schools but in my DCs school they are doing academic work from day one.don't be fooled by the 'learning through play tag' this just means that they are waiters and for example given notebook and pencils and go round writing down everyone's lunch order.
You talk about your kid recognising the numbers to a hundred, but in the reception class room there is a big board with a hundred hooks and discs with the numbers 1-100 to hang on them- and every day a small group of children had to figure out how to hang up the 100 discs correctly.On the carpet they counted in 10s to 1000 , 5s and 2s past 100,.They will do open ended tasks like 'making 8' where the less able children will be simply using additions, the more able will be using division and fractions (eg 80/10 and quarter of 32) they will read up to their ability level (some ORT level 1 and some 10).They will do science things as well I remember one of my DC 'mummifying' sausages in a similar way to the Egyptians did mummification
You think your DS is intelligent and he may turn out to me but there will be many other 4 yos equally able and equally curious.The school will know how to engage and extend 4 yos .You really don't need to worry

I don't think it's right to minimise the potential problem. Teachers are not actually very good at spotting gifted children, on the whole. They aren't specifically trained to do so. When I worked as a telephone volunteer with the Association for Gifted Children as it was called then, it was parents, 90% of the time, who picked up their child's ability. Parents often said- quite understandably- that teachers were good at spotting and helping the less able, but didn't recognise or help the more able. There is plenty of evidence that the very bright often end up under achieving (and in trouble) because they weren't recognised or stretched. To say schools will always provide the right level of teaching is not borne out by the experiences of many parents.

OP in another year or two, if you are worried, take your son to a private ed psych for a full educational assessment which will give you a baseline from which to move forward, if necessary.

peaches that school sounds exceptional. I am not sure many are like that.

My dd is gifted and school couldn't help her at all.
She managed from y1 to end of y3 but it got in the way of what she wanted to do.
If they are gifted in a subject considered as extra curricular even if it's on the curriculum they don't stand a chance at a state school.

I think some schools are good at challenging and differentiating and actually helping a gifted child, but it isn't consistent throughout all schools.

Personally, I'd start school for the social aspect, but be vigilant and monitor how he manages.
People are right about the social side and learning how to interact and have a normal life.
If they are really gifted it soon becomes apparent they don't fit the mould and school isn't right.

I was a bright child, early reader, good talker etc - and my parents did their best to nurture this - and also to find a school that would provide appropriate stimulus. They moved me out of an over-crowded state primary school to an independent one that was much more traditional/academic - when I was 8. This involved my skipping a year.

Which was all very well, but they did rather encourage me to be a misfit - if that makes sense. It was fine when I was a clever girl whose Mummy and Daddy were so proud of her. It was less fine, when I didn't have any mates because everyone thought I was weird - and the older I got, the more unhappy I became in a lot of social situations.

I'd say that really clever kids are quite good at finding what they need to know - through books, on the internet, curiosity about what's around them. If parents aren't skint and are vaguely educated themselves, they can probably just make encouraging noises - and say, 'Okay I'll take you to the Science Museum - or wherever - on Sunday.'

What I feel does need a certain amount of proactivity is helping a child who is out of sync with their peers to find activities where they can be ordinary kids, part of the group etc. Because there is also this deep human need to feel that you've got mates who like you, - and who are like you - and who you chill out with and cam be daft with.

As a teacher/Mum I'd say he sounds intelligent but not way beyond the upper range of his peers. If he is withdrawn at preschool then he will need to develop those social skills as others on the thread have said. From experience I can honestly say, the more you worry about it the more chance your worries will transmit to him, and affect his attitude towards any setting.
You're totally right to be aware and make sure he is well stimulated, but making sure it's a healthy range of stimulation is the key. If he says he is bored encourage him to explore other avenues, but don't worry about reception. The way the government have messed with the national curriculum there will be pace and challenge to spare, no matter where he goes!!! Good luck to you and him. What an exciting adventure.

Haven't read ft but DD1 was very similar to your son-though not into dissecting. Spoke very early ,learnt to read easily etc But it never really occured to us she was super bright to be honest and it was her Yr1 teacher who flagged it up .It was never a problem at primary school but I think it might have become so at secondary had she not got a place at a selective grammar school I think she would otherwise have felt 'odd' and been inclined to hide her intelligence .So I'd think very carefully about that stage (She did go on to take a double first at Cambridge and aMasters with distinction at a London University)

A lot of boys seem to have little interest in anything but running around a preschool but by the time they have been to school a couple of years may well be a match for your son.

You could ask at the primary school where you have a place how they deal with children who (a) need stretching and (b) have difficulties socially. Do you know anything about the other families at the primary school? Are there families with similar lifestyles to your own. If so there are likely to be children with some abilities similar to your son. Do some of the children go on to private schools or grammar or are you in a catchment area for a good comprehensive - again if so you are more likely to find your son's abilities will not stick out. Even if he is different, at primary school, he might enjoy the status of being the clever one.

Are there any mums at preschool whose children are going to the same primary school who you could ask to visit with their child for a play? he might find it easier to get to know another child if he has one to one time at home with them.

Makes little difference if it is an academic school a pre prep an outstanding or a good school (I suspect even requires improvement in some cases here - no personal experience there though) what matters is the fit of the child and the school.

to the woman who said only an outstanding would do RUBBiSH.. My son went through year 1-6 in a ofsted rated GOOD school. School coped BRILLIANTLY with the G&T children to the extend 2 got offered private school scholar ships and 3 are at local super selective grammar schools. It ALL depends on the fit.. We were very lucky in the ofsted report made in the june as ds left in the July the school got praise for how they had coped with the particular set of children in that school year for their additional needs on the G&T register.

A friend's dd was in an outstanding school where she felt her dd was that under stretched she moved her to another school rated good. her dd flourished there and went on to pass to go to a grammar school (We live in a Grammar school area)

I have friends who have moved children out of preps as feeling they were not working to state and friends who have moved from state to private due to clashes .. it all depends on how your child fits with the school and visa versa.

OP I have to say I am pleased some posters have suggested aspergers etc to you as I think a lot of your posts suggests this. For now I would just keep an eye However to me you are describing a friends ds who now at age 14 really struggles socially yet still manages fine with anything educational. Her older ds left school with mostly C's (some Ds) however have an active social life and through it has landed a great training post in a accountancy firm. He is happy and thriving doing well. My friend have said plenty of times that the one she worries the most about is her ds2 who has aspergers and will manage several A's in his exams. He can not sit through a interview for a job as he does not get the social aspect what so ever.

For those who comment on snide remarks. I also think there has been a huge amount of helpful posts.. I have a child who is in the G&T I also have 2 who are on the senco register for other reasons 1 due to severe dyslexia and the other was due to her inability to read and spell. I do understand how it feels like to sit there feeling your child is not stretched and I have had conversations with teachers about it. Doesnt change my opinion that op needs to get the social side of her ds development on tract with the intellect..

Any good teacher will cater to each child's needs. As others have said, he might find he has to learn how to socialise. There is so much more to school than reading & writing such as learning to get dressed independently, PE, drama, sports day, nativities, harvest etc. Interacting with other year groups will also be good for him.
Don't what ever you do, mention to other parents how clever he is as you have done here- not even to the teachers. They'll soon work it out & you'll not lose friends. Even saying how hard it is to have a bright child isnt ideal either.

The world needs bright little sparks like your son-just think what he could achieve in the future! He sounds like he is in early training to be a surgeon!

I really think it depends on the school's ability to support children who are very bright and those that are struggling. Some schools are really able to differentiate and keep the brightest challenged and motivated, some sadly, aren't. DD wasn't as bright as your DS, but was bored at her original school. She came home each day in a bad mood and was frustrated and ratty. We moved her and straight away she was given work that suited her more and which she had to really think about. She wasn't super bright, but bright enough to need more than her original school could offer.

Hopefully there will be some sort of induction for parents and children who are due to start where you can address any concerns and find out how the school cater for G&T children. If they sound confident that they can keep him challenged and happy, I'd be tempted to see how it goes. He's really young, so there's time to wait a bit and move him if it proves necessary.

I also agree about the social and emotional intelligence. DD although academically able, really struggled on these fronts and although her first primary school couldn't meet her needs, she certainly needed a foundation year to develop appropriate social and emotional intelligence skills. I wouldn't have wanted her to skip a year on the grounds that she could already read/add/subtract etc.

How odd that it seems most think clever children are socially lacking.

My daughter was well bored in her pre-school year and has constantly been fairly far ahead of her peers with her abilities. She is also an incredibly social child and has a good group of friends. There have been a few playground issues but mainly to do with the fact she has a disability and can't always keep up with all of them. All of her school reports note she is well liked and has good social skills.

She is in Primary two now and although she generally enjoys school, she does tell me she is often bored with the work and she finds it too easy. She asked her teacher if she could have a more difficult reading book and was told she would need to wait until the rest of the class caught up. The school claim they are always looking to challenge the brighter children, but they don't seem to be doing a great job. We deal with it by making sure she is challenged at home.

I think the OP has a valid concern and it is one I shared during pre-school. "Play" is something our daughter has never really done. She loves to do arty crafty things and enjoys running about and stuff, but she has never really enjoyed playing with toys, not for any length of time. According to quite a few of the professionals we've been involved with for her disability have said, it's not actually that unusual for children not to do "play". Just like adults, children have different types of interests and will enjoy different things. Of course education is about helping children become well rounded, but I'm surprised how many people seem to think that helping a child reach their academic potential isn't important for bright children. Since when did striving for being the best you can be, go out of fashion?

How odd that it seems most think clever children are socially lacking.

There does seem to be an undercurrent of this belief on this thread. My own experience is my least academically able child is also the one who has struggled most socially. My very bright, very academic child was incredibly social always. It isn't an either/or. each child is a unique mix.

I'll sail a bit against the wind here and say that it's a bit easier to recognise the need to intervene when a child has special needs that cause them to fall short of the average milestones.
And usually before a parent gets a diagnosis from a team of professionals they have one or maybe two niggling worries that they focus on.
You're focusing on intelligence here OP but I'm guessing what you're picking up on is a bit more than that and it could well be worth seeking an evaluation for him, if for nothing more than to put your mind at ease.
Two things in your post stand out as fairly unusual to me.
he's not playing and having fun at school (which goes further than being under-stimulated)
He's not relating to small creatures as potential people, but more interested in their insides which is very unusual.
I definitely don't think youre BU, and I would strongly urge you to discuss your concerns and seek a referral for a full assessment.
But, and I'm going to be blunt, if you talk about your child as being highly intelligent people will queue up to knock you. It comes across that you think he's too good for regular school. I know that's not what you mean. Sometimes we have to work out the right things to say to get the door to open iyswim. I was dismissed as an over anxious mum and advised to get counselling and take parenting classes before I was able to properly articulate my observations about DS and get him diagnosed, which wasted a lot of his precious time when I could have been helping him if anyone would have read between the lines instead of automatically assuming I was wrong.
All the best

I think your child sounds like a lovely, normal little boy (although there's no such thing really, they are all special) and you sound like a loving, intuitive mum, OP.

All you can do is support him at home and keep engaging with the staff at school. They cannot more than their ability and other restraints allow them to do, but you can flag up concerns and make suggestions if you feel you need to. If school isn't accomplishing much for your DS, you have two options really. Mentally write school off as nothing more than a chance for your son to spend time with other children, and as a way to keep options open in case he suddenly begins to enjoy this in the future. (Perhaps he will find it's more up his street as he goes through the classes and it becomes more academic. Or he might acually make a friend). The other option is to plug into your local home schooling community where the chances are he will find dissecting comrades aplenty! But it's a huge commitment and has both advantages and disadvantages. You're not obliged to give school a chance if you don't want to, but it is too soon to tell what kind of experience he's going to have.

If the social skills are a genuine concern for you, perhaps you could ask your HV to refer to a paediatrician. Early intervention is important as I'm sure you know. But I think he might just be being himself, which is not something to medicalise and treat as a problem because he sounds amazing! BTW, my four year old would be fascinated to dissect a fish!

How odd that it seems most think clever children are socially lacking.

Do most think that?

Yes people are talking about clever children who struggle socially, but that is highly relevant to the OP with an able child who's disengaged from preschool and other children.

And I don't think anyone's arguing against "striving for being the best you can be". For me I suppose it's more taking a much wider view of what "the best" is for my child. Plus a much more positive experience than you of our state school, so far. My DD was reading Ted Hughes in Y2 and being given special access to the older readers' section of the school library in Y3. Very different to being told to wait for her peers to catch up.

original but play is how children learn. And play isn't just playing with toys. Sharing/taking turns/ how to relate to others/understanding others feelings/emotions. You can't learn social skills from a book.
I want my dc to do well in school to "be the best they can be" of course..
Ultimately we all want our children to be happy. I encourage my dc to learn but I rather they mix well and are happy with who they are not with what they can or can't do.

Surprised so many thicko children abound.

My ds invented quantum cryptographic decryption, had conversation s with me whilst in the womb and recently underwent apotheosis stating he had evolved beyond mere corporeal concerns, can't imagine what he will be like once he starts school

Does anyone really believe the nonsense on here? 2 year olds cannot teach themselves to read . its like men talking about how many partners they have had

I have wondered how a child teaches themselves to read..

Lucy my friend's child taught her self to read to my friend's complete surprise - the way my friend tells it she learnt by reading the titles of DVD cases and copying the titles with her magnetic letters originally. My friend saw her doing it and asked her what she was doing and her DD read the titles from the magnetic words... She was only just 3 at the time, and shortly after my friend left her laptop open and came back to find her DD typing the name of her favourite character into the search engine :o

Very much not a hot housing environment but a bit of benign neglect, parents on the lap top quite a lot with child watching quite a lot of DVDs and observing more than they realised :o :o

Of course friend had also always read to her child a lot etc. which may or may not have played into it, and by the time my friend's child started school at only just 4 she was assessed as having a reading age of 11.

Very bright kids often do teach themselves to read - doesn't mean they all will, I suppose it depends what "kind" of bright they are.

My DD taught herself her letters from a singing magnetic letter thing we had on the fridge but didn't go as far as teaching herself to read, though it didn't take much effort at all for me to teach her when she asked.

My DS1 didn't learn to read until he was 7, but could read in two languages from the start, where I took trouble to teach DD in English and leave German for school (we live in Germany and DS1 was bilingual from babyhood, learning to read in German wasn't a sign of intelligence or hot housing).

My 5 yo claims not to be interested in me teaching him to read (I have offered) but he has taught himself to read and write a certain amount, though not fluently by any means - he types things in on the computer and writes things on his pictures and can read a bit - nobody has taught him, and he won't start school til he is 6.5 because of where we live - but there are always several children in each small school class who have taught themselves to read by that age, and plenty who haven't but learn really fast at age 6.

Kids do teach themselves to read relatively often. I guess it happens less in the UK because they start being taught to read so early - if you don't teach them til they are 6 or 7 a good 10% or so have taught themselves already by then - not little prodigies if they do it at age 5 or 6 of course, but some kids do it at 3...

I agree it isn't either clever or socially competent of course and its pretty clear that almost nobody on the thread is saying that it is

The reason people are talking about a need to help moomoomango 's child with social skills is that her OP is packed full of references to his inability to play or entertain himself or engage socially and the fact that if not receiving direct input of his own choosing her is thoroughly bored, withdrawn and miserable.

A 4 year old who cannot play and sits " twiddling an abacus" instead of actively engaging with the world around him does have some kind of problem unless the OP chose to describe an anomalous situation to illustrate her son's behaviour. Intelligent children should be just as able to cope without constant unremitting external input as any other children - assuming he wasn't sitting in an empty room there will have been plenty of things he could engage with even if his IQ was off the scale - not only children to play with but adults to talk to, and even if the adults were busy books to look at, paper and pens to fetch and draw or write, toys he could use in his own way, perhaps building blocks or lego - materials he could experiment with if experimenting is his "thing" and he has a bit of initiative - apart from anything there is a lot more to be done with an abacus than "twiddle" ...

I taught myself to read at 2 apparently. Can't remember how though.