Housework - who ibu?

[nobilityobliges]

I am 25 and getting married to my boyfriend of five years this summer. He is fantastic, and I love him very much. Pretty much the only problem in our relationship arises out of arguments about housework.

I am a really messy person. On top of this, I am currently working as a trainee solicitor in a big London firm, which means that I often don't get in til 9 or 10pm, sometimes have to work weekends. So I have a limited amount of free time, which I don't want to spend doing housework.

My fiancé, on the other hand, is pretty houseproud, and mess stresses him out. I try to accommodate him, and am a lot tidier than I would otherwise be. I also pay for a cleaner to come weekly. He still does more housework though. However, he has a lot more free time than me - he has been at home finishing his phd for a while, and now he has finished it, he is brushing up his coding skills (a different area from his phd) before beginning a job in that area in a few months time (he already has the job). I think this is a good career move and support him in it. I supported him financially through the last year of his phd, and am still supporting him now (ie I pay rent/council tax/food bills/going out etc). I'm happy to do this, and he is really working hard getting his skills up to speed and is definitely not just lazing around the house while I'm at work.

But my fiancé still just brings up my messiness a lot. For example, there will often be a buildup of my breakfast/dinner stuff in the sink (my bf washes up as he goes). I also often just leave stuff lying round -- eg my make up on the sofa after I apply it in the morning then rush out without putting it away, coffee cups round the living room, clothes in a pile on the chair in our room rather than put away etc etc. Nothing major, but definitely quite a bit of general mess. My fiancé thinks that this stuff is completely unreasonable and that I'm completely selfish for not being tidier.

My view is that (1) it's my flat too, and he has to accept that we'll be meeting in the middle mess-wise, (2) I am working very hard at a job, and it's unreasonable to expect me to also spend ages on housework, when this is something I fundamentally don't give a shit about and (3) I am contributing a lot by paying the rent and bills, so even if he ends up doing more housework than me, it's still a fair split.

The problem is that when I raise the fact that I am paying bills he gets very upset, and tells me that I'm trying to control him financially, and that if it was a man telling a woman this I'd be up in arms etc. I just don't know what's right. I do make an effort, but I'm not going to transform into a really tidy person, and I feel he should cut me some slack. I also acknowledge that he is putting every effort into increasing his future earning potential, but also feel that my current financial contribution shouldn't count for nothing either.

We seem to spend so much of our time arguing about this, and it's bringing me down. Any views or advice would be appreciated! Sorry this is so long....

Nobilityobliges This is not what you want to hear but how long have you spent on this thread?
In that time you could have done quite a bit of tidying.
Yes, I know, we can always find time for the things we really want to do, can't we?

This would be saying he is right to have a 50/50 approach that means he will NOT do anything for her.

Yeah I can see that's how it could seem.

I think it's really tricky TBH.

Mary the OP has not issue with the PhD. She has said that numerous times.
She has an issue with the lack of help on his side when she is helping him a lot financially.

You keep bringing the conversation back to the idea that he should be grateful that you have funded his PhD and enabled him to do what he wants to do over how ever many years. Boiling resentment not far under the surface, IMO.

Stuff you say you do, makeup in bag on sofa, cup not picked up-extremely minor. Is he OCD? It drives me a bit nuts that the DH dumps stuff on the kitchen table-I want it clear with only the fruit bowl-but I'm unreasonable that way.

Compromise is all: he needs to get over the minor stuff. He doesn't wash up your stuff?! That's ridiculous and pedantic. He can't be coding ALL day and as he gets up much later than you and presumably finishes lots earlier, then he can and should do more, it won't be forever.

Mary the OP has not issue with the PhD. She has said that numerous times.
She has an issue with the lack of help on his side when she is helping him a lot financially.

I didn't say that OP had an issue with the PhD. Other posters seem to though judging by the "cocklodger" comments.

I actually agree that he should be doing more than his share of the housework at the moment but that is because his PhD has finished and therefore he now has more time. The finances should not come into it though and he shouldn't be expected to pick up her mess regardless of time. Noone wants to be treated like a dogsbody.

I agree with what Candyfloss says:

It's irritating that the first thing some people want to do is chirp in with 'but if you were the SAHP...' There are no children. The OP is working long demanding hours financially supporting her DP so he can fanny about with a vanity project. If he has such issues with being seen to do cleaning for a mere woman, he should go out and get a temp job before his permanent one starts.

I guess what's coming through on this thread to me is that there isn't a lot of kindness in the relationship. I'm a bit messier than DH but to his credit he never mentions it, probably because I'm doing much more of the laundry/food shopping cooking etc. that it would be mean for him to do so.

You are leaving dishes in the morning as you're rushing out early to get to your job, you leave your make up in the living room because you don't want to wake him up in the bedroom. You already hire a cleaner to keep the place in a reasonable standard.

It sounds like you're the one making most of the compromises. Honestly if you haven't got DCs then having a go at someone for leaving their coffee cup out when they're just back after a 15 hr day just seems unnecessarily petty to do to someone you love.

OP have you discussed or thought about how you'd like life to be if you have DCs? Thing is if this is hard now then it's going to be a lot worse whilst you figure out roles and responsibilities post DC.

Rezolution123 ^ Nobilityobliges This is not what you want to hear but how long have you spent on this thread?
In that time you could have done quite a bit of tidying.
Yes, I know, we can always find time for the things we really want to do, can't we?^

Could say the same about the fiancé at home for 9+ hours a day, allegedly studying so hard that he doesn't have time to wash his partner's cereal bowl out that will be the same partner bankrolling his additional phd year and working 15 hrs a day.

The problem is that when I raise the fact that I am paying bills he gets very upset

and tells me that I'm trying to control him financially, and that if it was a man telling a woman this I'd be up in arms etc

I'm not surprised.

I don think yab especially u.it shouldn't be 50/50 split, of course it shouldn't. He isn't working and you are! Yes to putting make up away etc. But he is very wrong to not concede he has more time than you.

^Nobilityobliges This is not what you want to hear but how long have you spent on this thread?
In that time you could have done quite a bit of tidying. Yes, I know, we can always find time for the things we really want to do, can't we?^

That isn't very fair. The issue that the OP has is with the tidiness that is expected of her in the week when she is working very long days. In fact, she is not even asking her bf to tidy up - simply to understand that it might not be tidy in the week. Today is Sunday so she is not at work!

OP I don't think YABU at all. My impression of your DP is that he is pretty mean-spirited actually. Who the fuck just cleans their own dishes??? If I or DH are working long hours, the other picks up the slack. I could give a rat's arse if he leaves a cup unwashed - I will wash it when I wash my own; why wouldn't I? If one person, without children has all day long at home to "improve their coding" they can also do some cleaning that includes their DP's bloody cup! What he a twat he sounds. A freeloading one at that. Time he got a job, might give him something to think about rather than focusing on a cup. And as for telling you off I'd tell him to sling his hook. Seriously - he's not kind, he's not helpful or supportive, he's selfish and mean. Can't stand a mean man, it only gets worse.

When I first started reading this I thought YWBU but the more I read, the more I think he sounds like a total nob tbh.

He washes up but won't clean your cups? That's really petty and environmentally unfriendly

The usual guide to housework fairness is how much free time do each of you have?

That means genuine free time - paid and unpaid work, commuting, etc. is not free time

So if he's got an extra 2 hours a day which you haven't got, then I'm sorry but in a partnership, he should be doing a bit more housework. One person in a partnership should not have loads of free time more than the other person AND a messy house.

You do need to have an organisational approach to how you keep the place clean and tidy and you need a dishwasher (far more environmentally friendly than washing up and they act as a holding cupboard for dirty dishes and over the course of a year, cheaper because using less gas etc).

But also, your DP sounds like a nob.

Sorry

OK I agree I was a little unfair in my post above.
On reflection two things arise:
Firstly if OP did not have her partner living with her she would simply come home to a messy flat and have to muddle through but no-one would complain.
Secondly, the complaining and telling off must really grate on her when she is paying the rent and it is her flat.
He is living rent-free and probably getting other benefits too. (Not even mentioning the benefit of "love and affection") Maybe he should try getting a job? Even a poorly paid one just to show willing.

OP you have posted about your dp before I think? (or perhaps someone else - but have definitely read about a man finishing his PhD and then learning coding!)

I'm a similar age to you and with a similar living arrangement, but my partner is the one whose happy to leave cleaning duties, and I'm the one who leaves things lying around.

Just before we got married I got fed up of constantly having to chivvy him along, but instead of nagging and arguing we sat down and talked about it (on a Saturday morning so we were both calm, and the premise of the chat was to not accuse each other) and came to a compromise.

We listed every chore, roughly how long it took, and negotiated how often we felt it needed completing. We then divided it out as logically as possible based on our relative situations and used that as the basis for future tweaks.

We also each got a wicker basket which we're allowed to accumulate stuff in. Helps to contain my mess as I just dump it all in there when I need to (his barely gets used)!!

Might be an option for you?

Can definitely second the idea of getting a cleaner though- DH is up for a promotion, and if he gets it, that's going to be our indulgence!!

I think he sounds like a bit of a twat really.

You work much longer hours than him, pay all his bills so he can do his own stuff for 2 years and he wants all the housework to be 50/50 too?!

Fuck me, OP. He needs to learn what side his bread's buttered and stop moaning because you've left a couple of bits out that you will do later.

It's a shame the wedding is already planned for this summer. My personal view is that it would be interesting to see what the DFiance is like when and if he gets a job. At the minute he doesn't seem to have fully entered adulthood and I'd be a bit reluctant to hitch my wagon and vast earning potential to such a person.

He has got a job though hasn't he? It just hasn't started yet. Previous to this he has been doing a PhD/writing publications. This is normal for those who do PhDs and no reason to think he "hasn't fully entered adulthood."

I'm a bit torn on this as the messy person in the relationship, but it would drive me crazy if and it annoys me a LOT when I have to pick up stuff after DP. So if it were us, I think you should take your cup to the sink and maybe wash it if you get chance, pack up your makeup and either find some space for it near the couch or move it. Clothes- keep a separate drawer for the one that are being rotated and put them there. And he SHOULD be doing more because he has more time- so washing up and vacuuming and even laundry should be done mostly (not all) by him. If he's a decent guy, as you do more he'll be more inclined to take on more as he won't feel he's doing it for nothing if that makes sense (he might feel it's pointless to clean/ tidy because you'll make it messy again). If he thinks you should still share everything 50-50- don't have kids with him! Equal doesn't always mean fair!

I can't believe it took so long for the first vote of cocklodger. This isn't (as I thought initially ) a post about housework but tidying up after yourself. However examples you've given made him seem unreasonable.
You leave one cup out that you you use first thing before you rush of to work early in the morning. I'm a neat freak and our cups get left until after work as we both leave early and in a rush. I'm absolutely gobsmacked that he then does his own washing up but leaves any items you have used. WTF? (BTW I used to live with a boyfriend who did this even if I'd cooked for him - would wash up his stuff but leave mine nearly stacked for me to do myself. He was soon heading for Dumpsville.) I note he also wants just his own clothes but you do yours AND his at the weekend.
You do you make up in the living room so as not to disturb his lie in, put the make up away in the bag and happen to leave it in living room so as but to disturb him again.
I agree money shouldn't be a stick to beat with but only if this is a proper partnership with equal contributions of different sorts. But this isn't. He is having his cake and eating it.
Funny how he thinks housework should be equal ie 50/50 but if you dare refer to the uneven split of financial contribution he gets annoyed. Fuck that. You need to have a word and before you get married.
Is he an only child by any chance?

Nobility are you marrying my fiancee? or reading my mind??
We have a very similar situation. I commute 4 hours a day and work full time. I leave at 7:30 and back at 19:30 exhausted due to my job and others.
He has a ten minute commute and leaves at 7:50 back at 16:15.
But I come home and we take it in turns to cook dinner. He is a lot more worried about tidying than I am, and sometimes I think well, he does have more than 3 extra hours every day at home.
This was a problem at the beginning. Now we have reached a compromise. I try to tidy a little bit more and do the shopping. He has learned to live in a space that is not as neat as he wants it

OP. You say you are messy, untidy, whatever (from your description I'm afraid I would say slovenly...) and it's clear this is something you are not going to change. And you COULD change it if you wanted to but you don't want to which is your prerogative. Your fiancé is inherently tidy and intolerant of your mess and it's clear this is something he is not going to change. And he COULD change if he wanted to but he doesn't want to which is his prerogative. That would appear to be the situation. Money or no money, if you can't find a compromise/solution on these, relatively minor, issues, I think it spells trouble for the future of your relationship. Maybe a touch dramatic but there will be far worse storms for you to weather than your dirty dishes in the sink.

I too would wait till he's had a real job.

You sound like you do some hardcore hours. I'm a farmer and do similar - if you've never done Those kind of hours it Les very difficult to understand the mind crushing exhaustion. I would rather have a newborn than go through harvest. It's as much as I can do to clean my teeth and wash when I'm that busy. It's virtually impossible to do it without backup and that's something I think you need to thing about.