To consider ending my relationship over rape jokes?

[Genie0709]

Really sorry if this is a bit of an essay but I would appreciate any opinions/advice.

For background, my partner and I are 27 and have been together for 2.5 years. We have known each other since we were about 16. He has been the most loving, supportive, faithful person since we got together. It is a wonderful relationship and we bring out the best in each other. Currently we don't live together but we have recently started looking to buy our first house.

Last night, I was watching a programme on our Ipad which is linked to his phone. At the time, he was on the train home from work. He and his friends were having a group conversation over imessage and every incoming message popped up at the top of the Ipad as I was watching iplayer. One text appeared referring to a girl as "the one that got away, hey MrGenie" and I couldn't help myself - I opened the group chat to see who they were talking about (please no lectures, I already feel terrible and have never felt a need to snoop before). I soon realised that my partner had sent to his friends an instagram picture of a girl in a dress with her chest out. My partner had commented that he didn't know what he would do if he saw her like that. Cue the most disgusting discussion between these men joking that she was asking to be raped wearing that, even a judge would agree, etc. Gang rape was also joked about. My partner was actively participating in this chat, talking about a time when he went home with this girl after a night out and had "finished" in the taxi before they even got home because she was so hot. They didn't end up sleeping together, which he said he was "still gutted about".

Needless to say I am devastated. Reading that conversation was like reading the messages of a stranger. I have never seen this vile side of him and I feel like I don't know him at all. To me, it is so out of character but maybe he is just an absolute arsehole when I am not around. I am disgusted by the things he said and disgusted by his friends. I feel disrespected, humiliated, terrified that I do not know my own boyfriend.

I have been at work today so have avoided seeing him, but we have an appointment with a mortgage adviser tonight so I am supposed to pick him up from work in an hour. Currently, I can't even bare the thought of looking at him.

Am I overreacting - is this something you could get over? I know that these texts were sick jokes but even joking about it crosses a line in my opinion. I am distraught at the thought of ending this relationship but he obviously has this revolting immature side of him that only comes out when he's with his laddy mates. I'm not sure how I would trust him when he goes out with these friends in the future, or how I would ever look his friends in the eye again.

BTW I agree that you should insist he cuts himself off from this group; should you decide to continue this relationship. If he refuses, he isn't the man for you. Xx

Also, OP, your post has made me realise the need to ensure my 13 year old son clearly understands this subject. Thank you.
And best of luck with your future. Xxx

I think the whole joke theme has diluted the situation the OP has found out about into an 'I say I say I say, a man walked into a pub' type joke situation.

Just to refocus, we're not talking about a joke as in the specific linguistic format of jokes where it's clear that it's a joke, it's about an unknown / stereotypical person and scenarios, with a twist of some kind - like the couple that have been posted here.

These jokes are something very different to what is being talked about on here by the OP, and I think its disingenuous to conflate the two. Jokes themselves I suppose could have some type of defense / argument around pushing boundaries, laughing because it's so shocking etc. I don't particularly like this kind of joke or humour, and I think it helps build lack of respect and objectification that are the building blocks of violence and hate.

But they are different from a situation where a man found a sexy photo of a woman he knows, and sent it round to his delightful band of friends... And then they proceeded to tell each other what they'd like to do to this woman that they know personally, and that included rape and gang rape. Encouraging each other to go one step further and bonding as they do so, around the violation and degradation of a person they know. Not a 'joke'.

This is 'banter' (to use a hideous term!), bonding between friends by exaggerating, lying, one up man ship and here the line between fact and fantasy are blurred... But it's presented as something all these men want to indulge in whether it's in their heads, or in reality. And they've chosen this poor woman as 'fair game' as she's not one of the girlfriends / mothers/ family woman.

So whether it's about egging each other on as some really want to do what they are saying, or just sheepish disrespect, it doesn't really matter to me.

Is this ok?
'yup I'd love to do it and it's ok to tell these particular mates as they think the same, and hey it's actually giving me kudos as woah there I'm so extreme. And give me enough pints and enough male bonding and agreement, and ...'

And is this so much better?
'Oh I know we're all saying that's what we'd do, but I'm just going along with it to be part of the group, and I'll just follow like a sheep as in this moment group acceptance is more important than respect, laws or the women I love'

I'd say that if you are weak enough to join in and agree you personally would rape this woman that you know, you're already way past any line I'm comfortable with.

Excellent points Miscellaneous, except that he's not just joining in with the conversation - he started it in the first place.

FlyingElbows and UmbongoUnchained and UptownFunk00 so sorry to hear that.

GreenShadow you said "Women (while granted not doing the rape bit) can be just a lustful about men and their exes." I think the OP is very unhappy about the references to rape. I've not heard women jokinging about raping men - ever.

chilledwarmth Re "If you don't want to be subjected to rape jokes, maybe stop reading the thread at the point where someone starts to give an example of rape jokes?" Male entitlement always shows through!

QuiteIrregular and EverySongbirdSays totally agree!

PetrolBastard "For what it's worth, I don't think you should read other people's private conversations. Even if you had needed to turn the tablet off or text your partner to say that his conversation was being unintentionally broadcast to you." - for what it is worth I don't believe this was a private conversarions, she was on a sysmtem that texts the nmessages to her in some way and her partner knew that.

Justmeagain78 "Objectifying women does not lead to rape - all men enjoy porn, all men have explicit thoughts about women they're not in a relationship with but they're not all capable of rape. Let's be very careful here - the op's boyfriend is not intending to rape anyone."

WTF!

I am pretty sure turning women into objects for sexual pleasure against their will, in one's mind, and watching rape scenes in porn may well contribute to rape. Let's be careful here and not try and minimize what it is men might do, not all men are rapists, no one is saying that all men are rapists.

Vestal "If you can tell, even from such a distance, if a man intends to rape a woman at some point in his life, you should be using this supernatural ability to help the police. " brilliant idea!

Justmeagain78 don't you see all men could be are potential rapists. What stops men from being rapists is them not raping anyone! If they are watchin a lot rape-scenario porn where women are disrepsected grossly then I do wonder how they are managing to remain respectful of the girls and women they are in relationships with. The reality is that many young men are not managing to remain at all respectful and are coercing their girl friends into things like anal sex.

There are several threads on mumsnet about that at the moment!

Re "Getting hysterical and calling men rapists when they're just immature and ill educated does not achieve anything." I don't think anyone here is saying all men are rapists... or getting hysterical.

...all men could be potential rapists.

I have name changed. Sorry.

I had a 'one of the lads'. I did think he was wonderful. I would have liked to think that he didn't see women as objects. But I confess I sometimes felt uncomfortable with some of the banter he had with his mates.

It was fine when it was just us. It really was. Until I lost interest in being physical. I'm not sure why.

He used to put a pillow over my face so he couldn't see me cry. My tears and the look on my face ruined it for him apparently. I often wonder why I stayed. I often wish that I'd left him when I lost my respect for him instead of enduring that for years. I've been alone for so many years since.

I'm sorry op It is so hard to realise you don't know the person you love at all.

I am going on a march tomorrow about this stuff. Rape is a form of torture and gang rape is an even worse form of torture. Chill, your posts chill me to the bone.

I live in Mexico and there is a rising tide of feminicides, as we call them here. Men kidnap women, use them, torture them and then kill them. Come on, Chill, I'm sure you can find something funny to say about that.

canneversaythisinreallife I am so sorry to hear of your experienced. Thinking of you.

Atenco that is so appalling I've heard a few things about Mexico in relation to women and kidnap in general. I am so sorry, I hope the march will go well. I really hope things will change.

Op you sound like a good person.

I would dump for several reasons

1 the minimising and normalising of rape culture

2 having a misogynistic attitude

3 being weak and a sheep

4 being disrespectful to a woman he actually knows

5 being disrespectful to girlfriend

6 being immature and not understanding any of the above unless it's pointed out to them.

Also YET AGAIN on a site mainly populated by women, a thread about sexual abuse with rape apologists and posters perpetuating rape culture, disappointing MNHQ.

Italiangreyhound you haven't listened to my point at all so I'll try one more time.

First of all I think this man's comments are hideous and it made me feel sick reading it. I'm glad op shamed him and made him realise how phenomenally wrong it is to joke about rape and how women feel about such things. Rape is a bloody serious matter and this idea of women "asking for it" needs to be firmly stamped out.

Yes of course I worry about so much hardcore porn depicting rape - it is sickening and can affect some young men just as watching violent films can invite some people to violence - but not everyone of course. Most of us can separate reality from fantasy and the idea of real rape or violence repulses most people. For instance lots of women read the highly misogynistic "Fifty Shades of Grey" but most would object to a man dominating their every move in real life.

So I still disagree with viewing all men as potential rapists. Ok perhaps hysterical was the wrong word to use but it just feels like a big leap to automatically link objectifying women to rape. The objectification of women happens literally everywhere - in music videos and adverts, in universities, in wolf whistles in the street, in topless celebrity girls in lads mags and in men making offensive comments to their mates in order to appear a certain way. It is a sexism that pervades our society and it needs to be challenged constantly. We are all exposed to it.

In my view, most men do at some stage view at least one particular woman in a purely sexual way but this does not mean they all intend to force themselves on that woman. Some do but certainly not all.

I just felt that the op was traumatised enough without the suggestion that her boyfriend could be a rapist. Yes he could be but not necessarily and it would be wrong to draw that conclusion just from what she's said. It's up to the op whether she thinks these comments are genuinely how he feels about women and if she's not sure then I think it will be hard for her to continue this relationship.

Bumble

“There are many men out there who have been accused of rape but they never done it.” Bull! Just because there's no official complaint/conviction DOESN'T mean the woman wasn't raped. Conviction rates as compared to rates of women seeking counselling are appalling!

“The laws are changing and I have a son and I will be educating him on the law and what is socially acceptable.” how old is your son? Why do you need it to be law to teach him how to be a decent human being? To respect women and girls?

“I think we need to take better care of ourselves my partner would never have me go out in something skimpy”

Jesus!

You REALLY need to educate yourself on rape, rape culture, internalised misogyny, control, emotional abuse...

“You can make rape jokes without being a misogynist” no!

“only the group does, because it's only them affected by the jokes” wrong - rape culture! You might also want to read up on words and language and how they affect thought and attitude formation.

“And all these "private jokes" keep the racism and sexism going.” Exactly!

It leads to…

“And one day they're sat on a jury and they see a woman who was raped and their thinking "well, she was probably asking for it." “

“The person defending rape jokes and telling people who don't like them to get off the thread is a man. What a shock.” Not!

“like a big leap to automatically link objectifying women to rape.” Are you fucking serious?????

“The objectification of women happens literally everywhere - in music videos and adverts, in universities, in wolf whistles in the street, in topless celebrity girls in lads mags and in men making offensive comments to their mates in order to appear a certain way.” Yes and that contributes to rape culture!

Go read some interviews with serial rapists rape is NOT ABOUT sex or sexual attraction! It is about power, control, hatred and anger! Rapists rape women that have angered them, reminded them of someone that abused them or embarrassed them etc

OP - you are not being unreasonable. You can tel a lot about someone by the company they keep. He is weak, he tells his mates what they want to hear and then tells you what he needs to, to stop you finishing with him.
Move On, find someone who keeps better company.

As an aside: I am so teaching my 10 and 12 year old sons not to be misogynistic twats.

Awful. What else could he be hiding?

Whatever you do don't buy a property with him: that's a bigger commitment than marriage!

Boys do need to be taught not to take a misogynistic culture at face value. You can't just assume they'll have the right value just because you do when their peer group will be consumers of porn.

I have already talked to my boys about why they shouldn't look at porn. I've had to sadly because friends of theirs - yes, 10 year olds, have already seen it and talked to them about it.

A very high percentage of children have seen porn. And even if they've not seen porn they're constantly exposed to women being objectified in music videos.

It's not personal, but posts like this
He is weak, he tells his mates what they want to hear
(And there were many on the thread), conclude that his worst crime is being weak, when there's no evidence of that. It's simply a possibility.
The other possibility is that he does believe what he said (supported by the fact that he started the whole thing).
But then there were the pps who said we couldn't conclude he was a rapist or he agreed with rape.
Nobody concluded he was. It was just pointed out he could easily be.
Whereas many more people concluded that he wasn't.
No one can be sure of either.

This is one of the reasons rape conviction rates are so low. And rapists continue to be accepted and defended by society.

Speaking with former girlfriends about this man could help clarify it.

But, OP, if you happen to believe his weak story, keep in mind that the opposite is just as likely. Not less.

I completely agree with Baconyum's post at 04.22.

cannever and atenco

justmeagain78 I believe I have listened to your point - I just don't agree with it.

It was not me who concluded he could be a rapist! I am quite nieve and often take things at face value, I rarely draw conclusions not stated- I am not saying it is good or bad to be like this (actually I miss a lot that goes on under the surface because I do take at face value!).

My point was any man could be a rapist. Would you agree any man or woman could be the victim of rape? Some will be more or less likely but anyone could be, male or female, which is why it is everyone's problem. By saying something could be, we are saying it might be so. So from that starting point one would like at evidence.

I don't hear any evidence of this being so in this case but I do hear an attitude which is making jokes of rape, which is rape culture.

So I am not concluding anything else about this young man except what the OP said.

Does that make sense?

I'm going to go against the grain here. OP think very carefully before ending your relationship with a man you love and wanted to buy a house with a few days ago. I believe you will regret it and I think you're being hasty. What he said was deplorable no one could disagree with that, but it is show boating in front of mates. It's not right but don't throw your relationship away over this. He treats you perfectly you've said that. You thank your lucky stars for him. It was disgusting banter and he needs to be shown it's unacceptable and told this but give him a chance to redeem himself. Don't throw your future away over this.

it is show boating in front of mates.

How, exactly, do you know that?

The OP risks more by staying with him than by dumping him, because either possibility is equally likely.

He wouldn't be the first abuser who treats women well at first.
Should we ignore the red flags?

What would you tell the OP if she came back in a couple if years saying that the man she trusted so much had forced himself on her? Or he had been accused of rape? Or he had slept with prostitutes because all his mates had too?

Falling on a Venn diagram do we agree that we would find the lion's share of misogynist, violent fuckers, self-serving egotists, weak men and rapists among the group of men who are happy to bond over the joke of gang raping a woman they knew from uni over?

Think very carefully about that?