To consider ending my relationship over rape jokes?

[Genie0709]

Really sorry if this is a bit of an essay but I would appreciate any opinions/advice.

For background, my partner and I are 27 and have been together for 2.5 years. We have known each other since we were about 16. He has been the most loving, supportive, faithful person since we got together. It is a wonderful relationship and we bring out the best in each other. Currently we don't live together but we have recently started looking to buy our first house.

Last night, I was watching a programme on our Ipad which is linked to his phone. At the time, he was on the train home from work. He and his friends were having a group conversation over imessage and every incoming message popped up at the top of the Ipad as I was watching iplayer. One text appeared referring to a girl as "the one that got away, hey MrGenie" and I couldn't help myself - I opened the group chat to see who they were talking about (please no lectures, I already feel terrible and have never felt a need to snoop before). I soon realised that my partner had sent to his friends an instagram picture of a girl in a dress with her chest out. My partner had commented that he didn't know what he would do if he saw her like that. Cue the most disgusting discussion between these men joking that she was asking to be raped wearing that, even a judge would agree, etc. Gang rape was also joked about. My partner was actively participating in this chat, talking about a time when he went home with this girl after a night out and had "finished" in the taxi before they even got home because she was so hot. They didn't end up sleeping together, which he said he was "still gutted about".

Needless to say I am devastated. Reading that conversation was like reading the messages of a stranger. I have never seen this vile side of him and I feel like I don't know him at all. To me, it is so out of character but maybe he is just an absolute arsehole when I am not around. I am disgusted by the things he said and disgusted by his friends. I feel disrespected, humiliated, terrified that I do not know my own boyfriend.

I have been at work today so have avoided seeing him, but we have an appointment with a mortgage adviser tonight so I am supposed to pick him up from work in an hour. Currently, I can't even bare the thought of looking at him.

Am I overreacting - is this something you could get over? I know that these texts were sick jokes but even joking about it crosses a line in my opinion. I am distraught at the thought of ending this relationship but he obviously has this revolting immature side of him that only comes out when he's with his laddy mates. I'm not sure how I would trust him when he goes out with these friends in the future, or how I would ever look his friends in the eye again.

Also she should be able to choose to be skimpy on a dark night in the cold without having to accept that this will make her a target for rape, and that it would be for the best if she changed her dress or behaviour accordingly

You can make rape jokes without being a misogynist

Excuse me?!!

WTF!

Maybe you should re-educate yourself.... Men get raped too you know... and children.

Too many excuses nowadays from men AND women why this is considered in any way "normal"... makes me sick

This thread has evolved into a debate about misogyny, racism and inappropriate/appropriate jokes.
The crux of the matter is that OP is contemplating ending what has been, up until now, a great relationship.
A lot of men are sheep, a lot of men get carried along with banter between mates. The fact that he didn't hide messages from OP suggests that he didn't understand the gravity of his comments. He was probably trying to avoid being called a wuss by his "mates", if he took a step back from the conversation. Weak, immature, but not necessarily a reason to end what has been a happy, loving relationship.
Some time apart is wise, to decide if this man is someone you can spend the rest of your life with. If him being this stupid is something you can put up with day in, day out.
HOWEVER, I would be concerned about the fact that he views this woman as the "one who got away"..... I'm not sure I would believe that nothing happened between them in the first place.

He started the conversation though so he wasn't being a sheep. I know lots of 'lads' like this. Some of them are in their 40s and 50s and still haven't grown up. Only you know your oh and whether you think he will change.

Yes there seem to be a few posters on here clutching at straws despite the fact that he STARTED the conversation.

Be pleased you found out and ditch him. If you haven't already.
But yes, a lot of men are like that.

I honestly believe that quite a lot of men would rape if they knew that they could get away with it

Sorry I meant a woman making a joke about raping/sexually assaulting a man Vestal.

I don't think that's very common, but yeah, I would not trust such a woman around men I love.
(As I wrote, depending on the joke. If the joke was "Why does this woman not trust me to be alone with her boyfriend? Does she think I'm going to rape him?" with the implication that a man should be able to keep it in his pants and that therefore there's no need for mistrusting other women (unless you think they will rape); that would be different from "Hey, this man looks so hot, I think I will put a date rape drug in his drink, teehee")

... I cannot actually imagine a woman saying the latter. There are some few cases of women assaulting alcoholised men, but I don't think they talk about it so openly. It is just not as accepted.

Let's be very careful here - the op's boyfriend is not intending to rape anyone.

How do you know? If you can tell, even from such a distance, if a man intends to rape a woman at some point in his life, you should be using this supernatural ability to help the police.

As for men objectifying women not leading to rape ... treating people like things is the root of all evil, according to Granny Weatherwax. Objectifying women is treating women like things.
It may not lead to rape in every instance, but it makes it more likely that he will rape eventually, it certainly leads to cheating and other disrespectful behaviour towards women, and I would not invest emotionally in a man who does it.

I honestly believe that quite a lot of men would rape if they knew that they could get away with

About 30%, there's a scientific study on this. Of course, this is only the percentage who admitted it in an anonymous survey. This survey was done in the US, so perhaps we can assume that the true number in Europe is about 30%, while in the US it is actually higher and some just didn't admit it even though they were granted anonymity.

However, just because lots of men are utter arseholes doesn't mean that one should accept this and stay with arseholes.

Being a single is always better than being with a rapist, or even just a man who would rape if he was sure to get away with it ... especially since men know that if they are in a relationship with you, they are more likely to get away with raping YOU.

A lot of men DO rape believing they'll get away with it.

More often then not they are correct.

Vestal I am not claiming supernatural ability, I am going on the information provided. Making jokes about doing something is not the same as expressing a real intention to do it. Immature men say all sorts of stupid things to impress their mates, it cannot be treated in itself as an expression of real intent.

Objectifying women does not automatically make a man more likely to rape. If you believe that every man who looks at porn or who has ever thought about women in a sexual way is a potential rapist then you are accusing the vast majority of the male population of wanting to commit a heinous crime against women.

I'm sorry but you're leaping to irrational conclusions that really don't help anyone. We need to make it socially unacceptable to treat rape in a light hearted manner if we have any hope of irradiating prejudice against rape victims. Getting hysterical and calling men rapists when they're just immature and ill educated does not achieve anything.

Even worse, to my mind - the vast majority of rapists don't see themselves as rapists. This is where cultural normalisation gets us. If women (and children, and certain styles of men) are widely seen as consumable objects for sex use - and if such 'consumption' is normalised via jokes and asking-for-it type remarks - then it feels reasonable to take & 'consume'. After all, everyone does it, don't they? They're always talking about it.

Groups of men "bantering" in a rapey way need at least one among them, who will say that's not okay. More often than not he'll get some agreement. This is more likely to influence the thinking of would-be rapists than any amount of female protest. Although of course, we must protest as well.

The hardest & most reliable figures suggest one in 16 men is a rapist. That's referring to the kind of rape which results in a prison sentence. The surveys VV refers to asked a range of questions implying rape, like "would you or have you ever pinned a partner down to finish sex when they wanted to stop?" This kind of questionnaire shows between a quarter and a third of men being potential rapists.

The language and the banter do matter.

I've backed out of a couple new relationships after meeting my date's buddies. I trust my instincts and even if a guy is a genuinely lovely person when he's with me it shows pretty poor judgement to hang around with arseholes. Even these days there are many men who dislike women underneath it all. Why spend your life with a man who hangs around with such men, wondering if he secretly agrees with them.

Sexist bingo!
Look at all the "irrational" and "hysterical" women on here!

To be fair, Emma, it's one very persistent male poster and a couple of ditherers - scoring all the bingo points by themselves

Without wanting to sound irrational or hysteric; there are women on this forum with a lovely husband who before they met them raped someone who never pressed charges and carries it with them to this day.

It's sad but undoubtedly true

Objectifying women does not automatically make a man more likely to rape.

But it creates an environment where it is socially acceptable to do so.

This is why rape is high and conviction rapes are low,

Chilled you make the point that what happened to me is different from a joke (I'll leave aside your use of the phrase "on the receiving end" for you to have a think about) but the very fact that men "joke" about it is why it happened. I was 17. I was on holiday with my boyfriend of a year. I was a nice girl, he was my first boyfriend and my only sexual partner. He was bigger than me, stronger than me and absolutely shit faced. I said no. More than once. He held me down and I, numb and paralysed like a rabbit in the headlights, was very much on the receiving end of what he decided he had the right to do. There's not much of a line between a man who thinks that's OK and a man who actually does it. I'm lucky, I have a husband who thankfully isn't at all what so many people seem to think is inevitable in a man. He'd rather cut his own dick off than hurt me or any other woman.

Rates, not rape.

Garlic that genuinely has left me feeling sick to my stomach - surely a third of men wouldn't hold someone down to finish off? The thought is just urgh! I'm so glad I've found a decent man - before DH I almost thought objectification was OK and saying no made me at best a tease, worst a legible reason to force.

I'm so sorry Flying what a disgusting piece of work your ex was but so glad to hear your husband is one of the good ones. I too had the bad stuff happen at 17 (in relation to full blown sex) and you feel so vulnerable at that age already (only 9 years ago as I'm just 26).

Never underestimate how far some men will go to show off or not 'lose face' in front of their mates. Some male group dynamics are very unhealthy and some would do anything not be the butt of the jokes in the group.

It's a deeply unattractive trait but less so than believing the rape crap he spouted.

I'd rather go with the mantra that says to believe what a man says than risk ending up with a rapist.

It's his problem if he chooses to say things he doesn't believe in and a good lesson if that was the case.

But there is a real risk that he does believe it, but has learnt to hide it well from women in his life.

I love your nickname, Uptown! It's a distressing result, but I prefer to think about the other 2 of the three. I bloody hope they say something if they find themselves in the company of rapey men!

Thanks Garlic.

I agree there is the 66.6% who do not think its OK. I just find myself frustrated and angry by so many men who don't cut contact or at least distance themselves from actual rapists, let alone those whom joke about it but that's another thread.