to tell potential BIL the truth.

[ForTheSakeOfFuck]

Apologies in advance. To avoid drip-feeding this is going to be pretty long.

A few years ago, we found out that SIL had run herself into an epic amount of debt. The kind of amount that if you won it, you might even think about retiring. The details are pretty identifying so I can't go into them but it's enough to say that it was a combination of massive loans and burning through money that had been entrusted to her and she has literally nothing to show for any of it, ffs. Anyway, after she lost her house her DPs stepped forth and put another roof over her head. (I wouldn't have been so kind, but easier said when it's not your child.) All the while, they kept asking, "Have you told us about EVERYTHING you owe now?" and she kept swearing that she had, and then time and again, something new would come out from missed bills to unpaid bank loans. She is, by any standard, extremely secretive and would not have confessed to any of the debt had it not come out by accident, and she even tried to hide what she'd done via some ridiculously crap fraud that could have actually landed her in prison if the relative had wanted to go that far. In short, her finances are shot. If she does nothing but repay her debt for the rest of her life, she might finally clear it when she's seventy. She will never have a mortgage, she'll probably never get credit, and as far as her DPs are concerned, she can't have anything in her name for fear that it'll get frittered away, so she's effectively on permanent financial probation with them. (Again, not my choice of solution, but what can you do.)

Second factor: she's also a disaster with relationships. She either picks truly awful characters, or if she finds a semi-decent one, she goes so overboard with jealous control that she sends them running for the hills. None of her relationships make it past the two year mark and most die a gruesome death before six months. Finally, for good measure, she's increasingly desperate for babies (she has none so far), and time is moving on for her. Back to the present: A couple of months ago she started seeing someone new. He's a complete step-change from her past efforts - solvent, serious, quiet, hard-working, stable - in fact I'm kind of at a loss to figure out (a) why he isn't already taken and (b) what he sees in her. Whatever the case, DH and I think that if she has a shot of making a family happen with anyone, this guy would be a great option, BUT we don't think she's told him about her finances. She swears that she has, but knowing her character as I think I do, I wouldn't put it past her to have brushed it all off as "a little bit of money owed", if she's even said that much, and then rush to get pregnant, because, by her logic, he'd then be stuck with her. We're not sure what to do. Do we pull him to one side and make sure he really does have all the facts? Or do we stay out of it and let it all go however it's going to go? He's a nice guy and I think he deserves to know, but I'm also conscious that it's meddling in someone else's relationship and I'd be furious if someone did that to me. Then again, if she were a serial batterer, I wouldn't hesitate to tell him. I just don't know where the line is drawn here. Also, selfishly, if it all goes wrong and he leaves, it'll end up becoming our problem. She barely gets on with her DPs anymore - no surprise - and she can't even run her own household, so as a single mother there is simply no way she wouldn't end up crashing and burning.

In her favour, I want to say that she is a great auntie to our DCs - they bloody love her, and after a lot of failure and mess, I REALLY want her to finally have some stability and joy and a focus outside of herself in her life. I also think that with the right support around her - and maybe this guy could be it - she would probably grow into a great mother and partner. I would be properly and seriously delighted relieved if he knew the truth, and despite it, they could still live happily ever after, but what's the right way forward? Do we shut up and watch and wait? Or speak with the guy? Or what?? and if you read this far!

I can easily retire on a few hundred thousand, dunno why someone assumed it was millions.

MistressDeeCee With regards to the extra details, how much information can I cram into an opening post before it turns into a thesis? It was already pretty long as it stood, and we're talking about a complex situation spanning many years and multiple people. If you can do justice to such a scenario in a few hundred words without leaving out a single pertinent fact, I'd like to see it. At the same time, how much can I also go into detail before a somewhat identifiable scenario is virtually 100% disclosed in all but names and places?

It probably doesn't matter at this stage, since you seem to have formed a particular impression, but it was DH's idea to have "a quick chat" (no, not an interrogation, or a screed, or an intervention) with the guy one-to-one, and he wondered what I thought before he went ahead and did it. I was flummoxed and so came to AIBU for advice.

And if it seems weird to you that I am making decisions and planning ahead for the state of our finances ten years from now, then it seems equally weird to me that you aren't.

i would stay out of it, I'm not sure its any of your business that you need to save this man from her. If they are serious he will find out when she has to explain how she can't get a car or a mortgage or any sort of apartment to rent. I used to have hideous debt when i was younger, it didn't make me any less of a person despite the way you are treated.

Yes, agree with previous poster.
If they do become serious it will soon come to light if they can't get a mortgage or joint tenancy on a place.

blankmind when you marry someone half of their debt does not "become your responsibility"!

OP, I completely understand that you don't want to be party to a massive potential lie of omission. But the priority for you and your DH should be in supporting your SIL to declare bankruptcy. If she has debt of the order where she'll be paying it off until she is 70, she MUST seek the protection of bankruptcy. This will then be harder to hide from partners than the debt - if she hasn't gone through any kind of insolvency procedure she is probably still eligible for credit, mortgage etc and it would then be relatively easy for her to hide the scale of her debt from him.

Her DPs are either fools for stepping in and allowing their own savings to be wiped out, or they want to keep her trapped in debt for ever. What they're doing is not in her or their best interests. Any of her creditors can force her into bankruptcy any time they want - is it good for her to have that hanging over her until she she is 70?

She can declare bankruptcy if she is working, she can have a basic bank account and keep personal possessions. She wouldn't have to appear in court or have her name in the local paper, and could potentially be discharged after 12 months. The main lasting consequences would be that it would stay on her credit file for 6 years afterwards, she would struggle to get a mortgage (which it sounds like she probably shouldn't have anyway) and she would be barred from some professions.

Bankruptcy is the best choice for many people - far too many people try to avoid it and then find, after prolonged misery, that it's the best option to move on with their lives.

SirBernard I suspect that the debt isnt so much "official" as within the family, which makes it more difficult. The OP mentioned SIL being entrusted with large amounts of family money, which she either spent or "invested" and lost.

I am not saying that you are wrong btw, but it might explain why bankruptcy was not considered because then the family would almost certainly not see any of their money back.

I don't care if MNers think it's unreasonable. I would pull a nice guy aside & say something. Like "Did she tell you she had bad money troubles before? Look I don't want to go into detail, but you really should ask her directly about it. I know she wants to do better."

If I got uninvited to the wedding, so be it. My conscience would be very clean.

So, for the people who say that it's none of her business, do you have a line? Would there ever be a point for you at which you would tell someone about a family member's past?

Have just been reading another thread, and on there was a poster who found out after several years that her now XH had abused small children in the past, that all his family knew, and that none of them had sought to tell her. And when she ended the relationship, the family all sided with him.

Now, while obviously child abuse is in a different league to major financial issues, the reality is that serious financial problems to the extent that someone lies, covers up, commits fraud etc are serious enough to have a major impact on someone's life if they were dragged into them.

So, let's say the OP do nothing, says nothing, leaves this bloke to find out for himself who he's involved in, and then a couple of years down the line he finds out about her debts, decides that the lies and deceit are too much for him even if they happened before they got together, and leaves. Would people then be saying to the op that he was a bastard and she should support the SIL, or would people then agree that she'd brought it on herself by not telling?

Jesus. That poor guy. Whatever you do, if it were me, I'd be telling him. If he married her, he'll be saddled with that debt. Her debt could destroy him financially and he may never recover from it. If you don't want to tell him right now, make sure you tell him if he proposes to her. Although I would also be concerned by him having a child with her also if she is that irresponsible.

As for her parents - they BOUGHT her a house? Why? That was bloody stupid, in fairness. They are the ones that threw away all their money. Why did they do all that? And then they'll expect your DH to bail them out if they run out of money? So your DH is effectively bailing out his idiot sister. They should have let her deal with it herself and become bankrupt. If they wanted to house her, they should have rented a place, not purchased another property for her.

Also, you worry that SIL will become your responsibility in the future if it goes belly up with the new boyfriend or if she has a child. Why would it be your responsibility? She is an adult, not a child. You are not in any way responsible for her. You and DH need to practice saying NO. No, no and no. Presumably the way she's like this is because everyone keeps bailing her out. If she had to deal with his shit on her own, she may cop onto herself.

Please read what I'm about to write, and think about this man who your SIL is dating.
Years ago, I met what I thought was an amazing, kind, loving guy and we fell head over heels in love. He was a little older than me, lived with his parents. Anyway, we were together long enough to become established, happy, even talking marriage, planning the future, engagement, children, the works. I can't remember now exactly how I found out he owed loads of money to different companies, but it came to light. Credit cards, loans, the lot. Add to that gambling every weekend, to try and claw back a bit of money to pay his debts. Now at this point, I sat him down, with his mum, and tried to get everything out of him. I had honestly lost count of how many times I uttered the words 'if there's anything else you're not telling me, I need to know now. Am here for you, blah blah.' Anyway, you've been there so you know how it goes. Complete denial, until another letter arrives from another company and he's forced to admit yet another debt. Every fucking week without fail we went through this. Still, I thought, oh I love him, we'll sort it, together with his parents. Arranged appointments with debt advisors only to find out he called and told them he had a family funeral and couldn't attend.
Anyway, the end of the relationship came when I found out he had fraudulently taken out credit cards and loans in his ex girlfriend's name. All this while he's professing his love and asking to move in with me (I had my own flat).
Between all that and receiving phone calls when I was working away during the week along the lines of 'I can't promise I'll still be here (alive) when you fly back on Friday' it was utter hell. And yes, every time you hear another lie uncovered you lose a bit more respect and love for that person.

Anyway, upshot is, if someone, anyone, could have given me an inking as to what I was getting involved with, I would have kissed them. Worst two years of my life

Tell him.

She cannot be declared bankrupt if she works in certain industries - banking, for one, so stop saying she should go bankrupt.

I think some posters are being arses OP, and I understand and sympathise with the what ifs regarding PiL's future. I can't see an obvious way around the problem of letting him know though, very much doubt she has told him the whole truth, if anything at all.

Could your DH suggest to his sister that you go out for a meal as a foursome 'to get to know him better'? This could force her hand to either tell him or you the truth about what he knows. Alternatively, if she brazens it out, hints could be dropped into conversation at which point she will pipe up that her DP knows everything, or will stay very quiet and hopefully the penny will drop for him and he will ask her about it. You don't need to say 'did you know sil has just about bankrupted her parents?', it could be as simple as chatting about concerns for PiL's having to work through retirement, which may open up a discussion about why......

Don't envy you, not an easy one to deal with, but if he is a nice guy, he should know. And yes, it WILL all come back to bite you in the bum if she gets up to her old tricks involving him.

Good luck

so stop saying she should go bankrupt what just because some certain people can't?! It just seems mad to be paying off huge debts for the rest of your life. No it's not an easy or always possible option but it is a consideration. Presumably it's not possible in this case as OP would have mentioned else. Not sure why it shouldn't be a suggestion though from posters trying to help..

I've been thinking about this some more and I think your DH should take him out for a drink by themselves and mention the figure owed by your SIL.

If your SIL has told him as she claims to have done, it won't cause any problems. If she hasn't, your husband can say "but you said you'd told him, why did you lie to me?"

I don't think this is a situation where anyone is a winner but I think he has to know one way or another.

Can people also stop comparing it to other scenarios that aren't remotely like for like for the sake of justifying their standpoint ? It's neither relevant nor helpful

I'm astounded at how many people want to protect the SIL.

Unwittingly becoming tied to a spendthrift/rampant debtor/deadbeat not only will affect the lifestyle of the boyfriend himself, but it could affect his ability to raise any offspring in the way he envisions raising children - i.e. their housing, educational opportunities, travel, etc. - and other areas of his life such as ability to help aging parents, ability to retire, perhaps start his own business etc. etc. One's entire life trajectory can be derailed if one is entwined with a person with a poor financial history/habit.

We know she is a liar and an unreliable person. Surely anyone heading for the edge of this particular cliff through no fault of his own deserves to be warned? Just pull him aside, and strongly suggest that he and she each obtain credit reports and discuss what's on there.

Bogeyface Ah bollocks I didn't see that it was family money. There was never going to be a good way out of this then without people losing vast amounts and relationships being broken.

However - if the major part of the debt was family money and the PILs have paid it all off, then they have made themselves exceptionally vulnerable. SIL could declare bankruptcy at any time and leave them with no means to recoup their money. It's their right to take that risk though.

SIL could run up more debt though - if all this has been done by informal arrangement within the family there is probably nothing stopping her from getting credit from somewhere.

I think OP's DH should drop the boyfriend a hint. He needs to know if he doesn't already.

And if it seems weird to you that I am making decisions and planning ahead for the state of our finances ten years from now, then it seems equally weird to me that you aren't.

Good point, OP. It seems to me that people who don't end up with their paw out for one form of dole or another are those who envision various scenarios with plenty of time to prepare for them, instead of living willy-nilly and hoping for the best, figuring others will help pick up the slack if the best-case scenario doesn't happen.

Sorry Brie, reading back, that sounds arsey☺

I suppose I am working from the assumption that she would have been left to go bankrupt if it was possible, but parents stepped in because it was not. Mea culpa!

I have to say, if it was one of my grown up sons in this position, for so,much money and it would mean me losing my security for the future, I would let them go bankrupt no matter what their work situation.

It is an awful position to be in.

No worries toold - I also assume it must not be possible I think I just wanted OP to confirm as it seems so painfully obvious that she should - not that it's at all fair on creditors of course.

9 times out of 10 I think people need to mind their own business, however there are rare occasions where interference is necessary, no matter how awkward or difficult.

It's not just that the SIL has been reckless with her own money (which would be her own ill-advised prerogative), she has been reckless with other people's, causing huge financial difficulty for her own parents.

The OP's DH needs to have a word with him. If he already knows, fab. If he doesn't, then she is a liar (for telling OP/DH he knows) and the partner can make his own mind up about whether he wants to proceed in a relationship with her. Maybe he will stay with her and it will all work out ok, but he needs all the facts now.

I think you should tell him OP. I'd like to know how many of the posters on here with their MYOB attitude would feel the same if your SIL's boyfriend was their son.

She's been deceitful and borderline criminal for decades by the sound of it. He needs to have all the available information about her before he considers taking the relationship further.

I totally understand where you're coming from OP.

My aunt married someone within months of being widowed. This guy blasted his way through all her inheritance - a small fortune - very quickly. They ended up in terrible debt.

This was a recurring pattern in the marriage. My father bailed him out countless times 'for the sake of the kids' over about 20years. It's not easy to stand by and do nothing when you are the only person to pick up the pieces if it goes wrong. As my parents found. On many occasions the family was homeless. At one time the family of five were living in a caravan in our driveway! On another occasion their eldest child was living with us, miserably separated from his mother at age 6, because they couldn't afford to send him to school (different country where fees had to be paid). There was a time we went to her house as a surprise visit with some fruit we'd bought and thought she'd like. She immediately went and prepared it for the kids supper because that was literally the only thing she had to feed them. Another time we arrived and there was a really nasty character sitting in her lounge. He'd leave late at night and return at sparrow every morning, sitting in her home waiting for her DH to come home because he was owed a lot of money. Her DH went into hiding, and we were checking morgues to see if he'd been killed. Really horrible.

This guy lied every single time he lost everything. He eventually committed suicide when he hit yet another crisis. To this day no one has any idea what he was doing with the money because he didn't spend it on his family.

My now elderly aunt currently lives hand to mouth supported by her kids, with some support from my parents who cannot really afford it themselves. She doesn't have a penny or an asset to her name.

Your DH knows your SIL. If he believes this might be a recurring problem then, IMO, it's important this guy knows she has this issue. How you raise it is hard though. But the lying and getting angry was a massive red flag for me. I'd be worried too. This guy may want to stay with her and even be sympathetic, but take measures to protect himself (I would hope), and to do so with the support of you and your DH who wish her well but want what's best for everyone. And that might also help protect her as well.

I also think your DH needs to have blunt conversations with your SIL about her financial issues. It's all very well her getting really angry, but it sounds like she needs to be more accountable for the impact she has on other lives.

Forthesake I've read all your updates about the effect her appalling behaviour's had on your family, and in all honesty I can no longer see how you can avoid telling this man at least some of it

Let's not forget that you know SIL and we don't, so your judgment stands way above ours. There seems no way of avoiding offence to everyone - though I'm sure you and DH will do your best - but it seems clear that given the chance she'll take everyone down with her, screaming and shouting no matter what you do