to tell potential BIL the truth.

[ForTheSakeOfFuck]

Apologies in advance. To avoid drip-feeding this is going to be pretty long.

A few years ago, we found out that SIL had run herself into an epic amount of debt. The kind of amount that if you won it, you might even think about retiring. The details are pretty identifying so I can't go into them but it's enough to say that it was a combination of massive loans and burning through money that had been entrusted to her and she has literally nothing to show for any of it, ffs. Anyway, after she lost her house her DPs stepped forth and put another roof over her head. (I wouldn't have been so kind, but easier said when it's not your child.) All the while, they kept asking, "Have you told us about EVERYTHING you owe now?" and she kept swearing that she had, and then time and again, something new would come out from missed bills to unpaid bank loans. She is, by any standard, extremely secretive and would not have confessed to any of the debt had it not come out by accident, and she even tried to hide what she'd done via some ridiculously crap fraud that could have actually landed her in prison if the relative had wanted to go that far. In short, her finances are shot. If she does nothing but repay her debt for the rest of her life, she might finally clear it when she's seventy. She will never have a mortgage, she'll probably never get credit, and as far as her DPs are concerned, she can't have anything in her name for fear that it'll get frittered away, so she's effectively on permanent financial probation with them. (Again, not my choice of solution, but what can you do.)

Second factor: she's also a disaster with relationships. She either picks truly awful characters, or if she finds a semi-decent one, she goes so overboard with jealous control that she sends them running for the hills. None of her relationships make it past the two year mark and most die a gruesome death before six months. Finally, for good measure, she's increasingly desperate for babies (she has none so far), and time is moving on for her. Back to the present: A couple of months ago she started seeing someone new. He's a complete step-change from her past efforts - solvent, serious, quiet, hard-working, stable - in fact I'm kind of at a loss to figure out (a) why he isn't already taken and (b) what he sees in her. Whatever the case, DH and I think that if she has a shot of making a family happen with anyone, this guy would be a great option, BUT we don't think she's told him about her finances. She swears that she has, but knowing her character as I think I do, I wouldn't put it past her to have brushed it all off as "a little bit of money owed", if she's even said that much, and then rush to get pregnant, because, by her logic, he'd then be stuck with her. We're not sure what to do. Do we pull him to one side and make sure he really does have all the facts? Or do we stay out of it and let it all go however it's going to go? He's a nice guy and I think he deserves to know, but I'm also conscious that it's meddling in someone else's relationship and I'd be furious if someone did that to me. Then again, if she were a serial batterer, I wouldn't hesitate to tell him. I just don't know where the line is drawn here. Also, selfishly, if it all goes wrong and he leaves, it'll end up becoming our problem. She barely gets on with her DPs anymore - no surprise - and she can't even run her own household, so as a single mother there is simply no way she wouldn't end up crashing and burning.

In her favour, I want to say that she is a great auntie to our DCs - they bloody love her, and after a lot of failure and mess, I REALLY want her to finally have some stability and joy and a focus outside of herself in her life. I also think that with the right support around her - and maybe this guy could be it - she would probably grow into a great mother and partner. I would be properly and seriously delighted relieved if he knew the truth, and despite it, they could still live happily ever after, but what's the right way forward? Do we shut up and watch and wait? Or speak with the guy? Or what?? and if you read this far!

OP says the PIL would be delighted to off load her, so might not sabotage her relationship.
I would have difficulty avoiding mentioning "when SIL house is finally sold, it will be a huge relief to PIL as they are in strife. of course any eventual inheritance left after PIL, will all be going to OPs husband as SIL has bled them dry already with her debts & has has already had more than her share"

I'd tell him too

I couldn't stand my and let someone be mugged if a warning could have stopped it, so I couldn't stand by and let someone risk their security without being able to make a fully informed decision

It may be early days in their relationship but surely that's better than him getting in too deep. When would be the right time? When he proposes? When she gets pregnant?

I admit I can't be bothered to read through ten pages of what appears to be a lot of people shouting, but going off your initial post I'd say someone definitely needs to tell the guy. It's all very well say MYOB but I couldn't sit back and let an innocent person get their life completely ruined which there is a very real danger of here.

It is possible she has told him though. I have a friend who went bankrupt owing a couple of million and has always been completely open with any new girlfriends about it. My understanding of it is that when it's that kind of money it's not just a case of waiting 5 years and then you can get a mortgage again, but it's not like you can get a mortgage when you're that badly in debt either.

Now that I think about it, why the hell hasn't she gone bankrupt? Maybe that would be a good way into the subject. Get your DH to assume the boyfriend already knows and start the conversation as though he's trying to recruit an ally to persuade her to make a fresh start. Apologies if that's already been covered.

If it was one of my children I'd rest easy in the knowledge that I've not brought them up to be judgemental people. There are some really unpleasant assumptions on this thread about people who find themselves with debt problems. For those of you who think people in debt are scammers or out to fleece people I really really hope you don't ever lose your job or suffer an illness or any other huge event. For every one person whose spent their cash on handbags there are hundreds more who are facing financial difficulty for genuine reasons. Being in debt is not a reason to treat someone like a social disease.

Op, as has been suggested more than once on this thread, get your sil to contact the very nice, helpful and totally judgement free people at National Debtline. If you're concerned about how her situation may affect you then phone them yourself from some factual information not stuff pearl clutchers on the Internet have made up.

I suspect that people who are in financial difficulties for 'genuine reasons', are more likely to be open about how they got there, particularly to the people helping them turn their life around.

However, if someone is regularly lying and being very defensive and angry when asked to come clean by the very people who are financially assisting them - to the point it is creating financial problems for THEM - then I suspect they are either horrible (which the OP says she is not), or may have something to hide.

Those assumptions are not based on prejudice. That is exactly what happened in our family.

A friend of ours discovered 16 years into a relationship that his wife of 6 years had substantial levels of debt that preceded his marriage to her but had increased since. She had hidden it very carefully, making sure she always got the post in, had things sent to her work. She had opted out of pension schemes etc to maximise her access to cash, had credit card debts that would make your eyes water.

He was broken when he discovered the deceit. On seeking legal advice, he was told that even if they then divorced, because of the time lapse, she would get half of everything. My view is that he had crap advice here, but he didn't feel he could risk it and has ended up having to help pay her debts, stuck in a loveless marriage, thankfully no kids. Although it also transpired she had two terminations citing the timing not being right when the timing was purely financial.

I am not going to give all details and risk outing him or me, so this summary may seem a little preposterous. It isn't. If he had known he would have run for the hills. As it is, he feels stuck with her for life, will never be a father etc.

You have to tell this man somehow, or confirm that he does know the true extent of the debt.

Really, her talking to the national helpline just won't touch this. For a start she won't talk to them - because she doesn't have a problem, right? - and they don't specifically deal with people who have a problem on this scale. That is, an addiction. They predominantly deal with people who get into a mess - though of course will deal with people who are money addicts; just that people who are addicts will move the universe around to deny they have a problem, so wouldn't even call this helpline. It's probably the reason she hasn't gone bankrupt - she doesn't have a problem, right? And anyway, forget all that, it's boring.

She'll get her fix whatever way and won't care who gets dragged around in it - such is the nature of addiction. It is classic she's met this guy and thinks she can bury the past and hop into being a wife/mother with alarming speed: Fresh Start. It won't have escaped her notice he is solvent. Only she'll still have the problem, it won't solve the problem she has with money.

The level of deceit and cunning in addicts is astonishing (eg the pp's friend whose partner hid the problem for 16 years). As with all addictions, any hope of a way out is usually to bottom out. Covering for her, propping her up, puts off that day.

There are some really unpleasant assumptions on this thread about people who find themselves with debt problems

A lot of people posting have had debt problems, which is why they (I) feel as stongly as they do about her telling him up front about her problems. He can only make an informed decision about whether he is happy to go forward in a relationship with her when he has the full information.

For those of you who think people in debt are scammers or out to fleece people I really really hope you don't ever lose your job or suffer an illness or any other huge event. For every one person whose spent their cash on handbags there are hundreds more who are facing financial difficulty for genuine reasons

Yes but the SIL isnt one of them. She is were she is by misusing money that was entrusted to her by family members, not because she was made redundant and needed to live on it, if she had I feel sure that the OP would have mentioned it.

Being in debt is not a reason to treat someone like a social disease.

No its not. But she isnt just in debt is she? She has lied, over and over and over to her parents, kept up a web of lies for over 10 years and may now be lying to a man who she is planning to have a baby with. Its not the same thing as you are suggesting at all.

Being in debt due to involuntary misfortune, despite one's best efforts to avoid debt, is one thing.

Being a flagrant spendthrift living for years on end above one's means at the expense of others, and not working very hard to make one's way in the world but rather cheating others in order to afford one's pleasures, is quite another.

I think it is entirely sensible of your DH to speak to her bf.

She hasn't just run up debt herself, she has spent money entrusted to her by relatives, and plunged them into financial difficulty, with no evident remorse. She hasn't had to face what she has done fully as your pil baled her out. Even then she lied repeatedly about her debt. Whilst she may have reformed, there is sufficient background to suspect that she may still be lying, or may slip back into her old ways.

Your SIL has apparently told him already. So your DH can ask him if he knows that she owes/ owed X. If she has been honest and he knows already, there is little harm done (SIL might be cross but frankly I wouldn't give a hoot after all she has put the family through). If he doesn't know, then it is better that he finds out now tbh, he certainly won't think more kindly of her if he finds out after they have shared finances.

As she has had such massive, seemingly addictive money problems I actually think it would also be harmful for her to have the opportunity to run up more debt with an unwitting partner if she is deceiving him. She definitely won't reform whilst she has opportunity to run up more debt.

What do you think she spent the money on though? Holidays, gambling, socialising? I don't understand where it could have all gone with nothing to show for it.

I wouldn't say anything specific but because if I was in same position as him I'd want to know, I'd drop hints. I don't actually know what these hints would be because I haven't really thought this post through.

Gosh, this has reminded me of a seemingly sensible guy I was in a serious relationship with for a year. He had a well paid responsible job, seemed sensible with his money and utterly above board. Unfortunately he was in debt- I don't know how much, but he was taking out covering loans from loan sharks as he was refused loans from everyone, even payday lenders and weloantoallbadcreditratings.com type companies. I cannot fathom where the money had gone as his good salary easily covered his outgoings and we spent so much time together that I can't imagine that he had much of a gambling habit. I only found out when I read his emails as I suspected correctly that he was cheating on me. He denied it completely, even when I confronted him directly. I had a lucky escape there.... I would have been devastated if I'd married him (not that that would have happened) or we had bought a house together.

The woman can't go bankrupt. Property and money entrusted to her, were not hers to fritter away.

I'd definitely tell. Some PPs seem to be ignoring evidence of her being a serial liar, stealing vast sums from her nearest and dearest, and denying her parents' their retirement. Given the circumstances it's not at all unreasonable to assume that worst case scenarios are very likely to actually happen in this case. It would be terribly sad for a child to be bought into this situation based on deceit.

Please have a conversation with him to be sure that he does already know (if she is a reformed character he can reassure you that he knows all about it). If he doesn't, you behaved in a decent way. Wouldn't you (and other posters) want someone to just run this by you if you were in his shoes?

Does anyone remember a case a few years ago? A mother and father killed themselves after their daughter (who may or may not have learning disabilities, but certainly had a spending addiction) cleaned them out financially. People are jumping on the OP for extrapolating the situation but sometimes bad things happen and it fucks people up.

I think he deserves to know, just like he deserves to know if she's a drug or alcohol addict.

I have no idea how you would broach the subject, maybe just a throwaway comment about 'of course after the £xxxx fiasco SIL can't get credit' during a convo about holidays or whatever might do it.

I don't envy you OP. Not an easy decision to make. I do think your DH should bear the responsibility of doing it.

I've known a couple of men who discovered their partners had huge debts.
FWIW I'm not in any way implying that this problem only lies with women,
One guy discovered his wife had frittered away £30,000 and had nothing to show for it. It wasn't until she went into hospital for an emergency operation that he found she had several credit cards and had re mortgaged the home.
His annual salary was about £23,000 and she was a SAHM ( kids not his)
She was buying friends and family expensive gifts, and had no real understanding of where the money was coming form. She was quite oblivious to the fact that money doesn't grow on trees.
He divorced her, but unfortunately had to take on most of her debt.
He was hoping to be mortgage free by 60 with an adequate pension.
He really didn't see it coming. His ex went to great lengths to hide her addiction.

The man must be told. Ideally by your SIL but if she won't, your PIL or DH or you should tell him. Absolutely wrong to stand by and say nothing. Can't understand the MYOB brigade on this thread. This poor man's life could be ruined. Could you discuss it with your SIL to explain why the man has to be told.

Jane but that's the point isn't it OP doesn't even know if SIL has told this guy - she's just assumed she hasn't and if it's anyone's place to tell its hers before OP goes running about behind her back like the town gossip

It's not an assumption based on nothing though is it? Years of lies and then meeting family but not the parents she owes a fuck-ton to would make me suspicious too.

IMO, she has possibly told him as little as she can get away with - enough to perhaps explain an issue with credit but not the whole truth.

I suppose for me one of the main issues of this thread has been the very strong feeling that the OP is not operating with concern for this man as her primary motivator

Really hard call op, good luck. Different situation, but along similar lines, happened to our family recently.

My DSD got married in 2014 to a lovely guy she had been seeing on and off for about five years (split up a few times as were at uni at different ends of the country). She found out a month or so before the wedding that he had a large debt (but nowhere near if-you-won-it-you-could-retire) and helped him by taking a loan in her name to cover the debt; he swore that was it. Well, after a few months it came to light that actually the debt was over three times what he had fessed up to, and after a horrible heart wrenching few weeks she decided she would have to walk away; the debt wasn't the deciding factor it was the lies and deceit.

She is now saddled with a large debt in her name (he will sort of try to pay her some back eventually when he has cleared the more pressing matters of the rest of the debt and moving and going out partying...) and this will have a significant effect on her for a long time (not to mention the huge amount spent on the wedding, down the drain). I so feel for her, and wish that somebody had been able to give her a fuller view before they married - it might have made a difference as there wouldn't have been the lies, or she might have been able to make an informed decision and cut her losses earlier, so to speak.

I can completely understand everybody saying it's none of your business, but when it will potentially have a devastating affect on somebody else's life, then it changes the picture. What would the MYOB posters say if it was violence or health related - this "merely financial" issue could have a devastating affect on his health and mental wellbeing in the future.

I don't envy that you have to make this call. Can you speak to DPs for advice as they already know the full situation?

Here's another example of how serious issues with money can destroy lives. From The Guardian yesterday.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/20/woman-defrauded-parents-250000-fake-oxford-career-nicola-boardman

erm , more of a drugs story, really. As the judge said at the end.