to tell potential BIL the truth.

[ForTheSakeOfFuck]

Apologies in advance. To avoid drip-feeding this is going to be pretty long.

A few years ago, we found out that SIL had run herself into an epic amount of debt. The kind of amount that if you won it, you might even think about retiring. The details are pretty identifying so I can't go into them but it's enough to say that it was a combination of massive loans and burning through money that had been entrusted to her and she has literally nothing to show for any of it, ffs. Anyway, after she lost her house her DPs stepped forth and put another roof over her head. (I wouldn't have been so kind, but easier said when it's not your child.) All the while, they kept asking, "Have you told us about EVERYTHING you owe now?" and she kept swearing that she had, and then time and again, something new would come out from missed bills to unpaid bank loans. She is, by any standard, extremely secretive and would not have confessed to any of the debt had it not come out by accident, and she even tried to hide what she'd done via some ridiculously crap fraud that could have actually landed her in prison if the relative had wanted to go that far. In short, her finances are shot. If she does nothing but repay her debt for the rest of her life, she might finally clear it when she's seventy. She will never have a mortgage, she'll probably never get credit, and as far as her DPs are concerned, she can't have anything in her name for fear that it'll get frittered away, so she's effectively on permanent financial probation with them. (Again, not my choice of solution, but what can you do.)

Second factor: she's also a disaster with relationships. She either picks truly awful characters, or if she finds a semi-decent one, she goes so overboard with jealous control that she sends them running for the hills. None of her relationships make it past the two year mark and most die a gruesome death before six months. Finally, for good measure, she's increasingly desperate for babies (she has none so far), and time is moving on for her. Back to the present: A couple of months ago she started seeing someone new. He's a complete step-change from her past efforts - solvent, serious, quiet, hard-working, stable - in fact I'm kind of at a loss to figure out (a) why he isn't already taken and (b) what he sees in her. Whatever the case, DH and I think that if she has a shot of making a family happen with anyone, this guy would be a great option, BUT we don't think she's told him about her finances. She swears that she has, but knowing her character as I think I do, I wouldn't put it past her to have brushed it all off as "a little bit of money owed", if she's even said that much, and then rush to get pregnant, because, by her logic, he'd then be stuck with her. We're not sure what to do. Do we pull him to one side and make sure he really does have all the facts? Or do we stay out of it and let it all go however it's going to go? He's a nice guy and I think he deserves to know, but I'm also conscious that it's meddling in someone else's relationship and I'd be furious if someone did that to me. Then again, if she were a serial batterer, I wouldn't hesitate to tell him. I just don't know where the line is drawn here. Also, selfishly, if it all goes wrong and he leaves, it'll end up becoming our problem. She barely gets on with her DPs anymore - no surprise - and she can't even run her own household, so as a single mother there is simply no way she wouldn't end up crashing and burning.

In her favour, I want to say that she is a great auntie to our DCs - they bloody love her, and after a lot of failure and mess, I REALLY want her to finally have some stability and joy and a focus outside of herself in her life. I also think that with the right support around her - and maybe this guy could be it - she would probably grow into a great mother and partner. I would be properly and seriously delighted relieved if he knew the truth, and despite it, they could still live happily ever after, but what's the right way forward? Do we shut up and watch and wait? Or speak with the guy? Or what?? and if you read this far!

"And incidentally people without much money often make great parents."
wtf ?

BillSykesDog Again, I feel like there's an obsession here with taking the worst possible view. Unfortunately I have perfectly cogent answers for how you can get that far into debt (trust me, a few years ago I'd have thought it impossible too, I now know much better) which goes back to how she was entrusted with large amounts of other family members' money. If you appear to have plenty in your account or in property that's in your name, banks and loan companies are frighteningly willing to extend you any number of lines of credit. The property market peaked a few years ago, the lines of credit were extremely generous to the point where I actually think there was a degree of criminal negligence, and then the housing market slumped and now she is where she is.

BilSykes
For a start, the account the OP has given of the debts is highly fantastical and extremely exaggerated at best

WTF - What a snarky comment. If you don't believe the OP why bother posting? Have a look on MSE debt forums and you will see hundreds (and I don't think that's an exaggeration ) of people who have got themselves into situations that similar to the OPs SIL.

There are also plenty of examples where partners have no idea or their partners massive debts.

WTF - What a snarky comment. If you don't believe the OP why bother posting? Have a look on MSE debt forums and you will see hundreds (and I don't think that's an exaggeration ) of people who have got themselves into situations that similar to the OPs SIL.

Funds large enough to retire on? Really? That would take an entire lifetimes earnings to pay off? That's millions of pounds.

Loans against cash? And unless this is another country the housing market didn't 'peak a few years ago'. And working doesn't stop you being made bankrupt.

At best the OP misunderstands or is misinformed.

At the very best the OP would be passing in exaggerated half truths and gossipy tittle tattle. You don't destroy someone's life by passing on a mishmash of exaggerated half remembered 'facts' that you're not sure about. Unless of course your intention is just to destroy their life so you don't even care if what you're passing on is even close to truthful.

Lending lines were generous, but that might go into the tens or even hundreds of thousands. Millions of unsecured debt with no means of repayment? No.

'and then the housing market slumped'.

Because that happened.

For those wondering why I'm so invested in this (and I'm happy to admit that maybe it's time to just let it go and let the chips land where they will) the major stumbling block for us is that her financial implosion took out her DPs' life savings and retirement funds. A few other relatives got burned too but to a much lesser extent. So her DPs are now back at work to try to support both their own remortgaged house and the house they also bought for her to live in. How does that affect us? Because DH doesn't want his parents working until they die, or alternatively, re-retiring and living in poverty in their old age. I have no idea how far that will affect us. There certainly will be some consequences, even if it's as simple as whether we can afford retirement homes for his DPs, or as substantial as taking over one of the mortgages so that they aren't bearing the entire burden themselves. Whatever the case, dragging an unwitting person (if he is unwitting) into it doesn't seem fair. In a perfect world, of course, he knows, they move in together, the DPs sell her house, pay off their own mortgage, et voila, things are back to being as good as they can be. However, if it all goes wrong and SIL and "Bill" split up (say, because she hasn't told him the truth) then she'll need somewhere to live. If there's no baby on the scene, fair enough, but if there is, that's a whole different kettle of fish.

And for those wondering, why are we so worried right now when it all seems so far away? Why weren't we bothered about the other people she's dated? Why so much borrowing of trouble that hasn't happened yet? This is the first guy she's brought "home". With the others the issue never even arose because for the most part we'd only find out about them from afar. With this guy though things seem to be moving at break-neck speed. She's brought him to visit us (but not DPs - they haven't met him yet) a few times, and she's been talking to him and in front of him about having babies, including encouraging him to ask us questions about it. A wedding isn't the issue. Her getting pregnant as fast as she can is. I haven't had enough time to get to know him to judge his feelings properly or even get to know him beyond the general impression that he seems like a good person, but my sense is that she's steering the ship.

As I said before, with luck, he knows - truly knows - and this really is all borrowing trouble. I've never seen this much debt in my life and it scares me. To this day we don't know what it was spent on and we don't know if it somehow continues. She managed to keep what she was doing hidden for nearly ten years before it finally came out so I don't doubt she could do the same again, though probably less easily from someone who would be this close. Again, you may say not our circus, but it affects her DPs, and through them, it affects DH.

I would tell definitely. Not sure how I'd do it but morally I think he should know. If it was the other way round more would agree with you I'm sure

With respect Bill first you're projecting a totally unrelated situation onto the OP, secondly you seem very naive about financial matters.

As Quook says it's surprisingly easy to run up large debts, particularly if there's property involved.

BillSykesDog Could you not retire on many hundreds of thousands? I certainly could. I'm not talking a millionaire's jet-setting lifestyle. Just an ordinary quiet retirement.

LanaorAna1 The housing market peaked in around 2007, no? And then crashed in 2008-2009? I'm not sure what's disputable about that fact, but in case it seems I have invented that too, here: www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-28108717

BillSykesDog and LanaorAna1, let us agree to disagree. I have no desire to argue about a matter that's given enough grief all round to last anyone a lifetime. I'm happy for you to be as skeptical or disbelieving as you like, but let's each of us go our own way in peace.

You don't destroy someone's life by passing on a mishmash of exaggerated half remembered 'facts'

They wouldn't be 'destroying' anyone's life. Simply passing on some facts which, if the couple stay together, the guy would find out anyway. If it's a dealbreaker for him it will be so whenever he finds out.

OP know the facts and you don't, so you're not in a position to say her claims are exaggerated and half forgotten.

Xpost with OP.

I was assuming the debt was hundreds of thousands rather than millions. I'm not sure where Bill got her projected figures.

It does sound very much like the parents will be unable to stop themselves from telling the boyfriend anyway, if they are constantly getting at her about it all. I also think this could ruin his life. The bits about talking about babies in front of him and with him to you sounds very fast-moving - how long have they been together, OP?

Um. I get what everyone is saying about keeping your nose out, but I'm not sure I would trust her to do the right thing at all. I think you should keep well out, but I also think your DH might be justified in asking her what she's told him, and trying to encourage her to tell him if she hasn't already, or if she hasn't told him it all.

I know someone who was earning minimum wage who got themselves into around £65k worth of debt in the space of two years.

I know someone else who has three credit cards with a combined limit of £15K and has been able to take out loans of £23k. And she earns around £20k a year, has no property so these are unsecured debts.

£50k is two years worth of income for the average earner. And yet it's relatively easy to borrow that amount. And if her parents paid it off then it would be easy to borrow it again.

Anyone who thinks that it's not easy to get into life changing amounts of debt is incredibly naive.

Our general attitude to debt has changed over the years as well. To the extent that now some people don't even think of credit cards and overdrafts as debt at all.

It does sound very much like the parents will be unable to stop themselves from telling the boyfriend anyway

Cheddar you're probably spot on. Which is why OP has met the guy, but the DPs haven't.

"Our general attitude to debt has changed over the years as well. To the extent that now some people don't even think of credit cards and overdrafts as debt at all." absolutely. I know people who consider their credit limit to be money they essentially have to spend "oh, I have 6K available on my card, means we can have a holiday then." .

TooExtraImmatureCheddar I'm estimating that the relationship has been going between three to six months. DH managed to quietly ask her during this last visit if she'd come totally clean about it and stressed to her that if she wants this one to work out, she has to be honest with him. In his view, if the guy is going to run, it's best that he do it now. She swore to him that she had told the guy everything. However, when it all first came out a few years ago, she said exactly the same thing to her DPs. Then a week or two later, something else would come out, and she'd swear that really was it now. Nothing else. Then something else would come out. I'd say that happened about four or five times in a row, so it's pretty difficult to take her at her word.

I was assuming the debt was hundreds of thousands rather than millions. I'm not sure where Bill got her projected figures.

Because the OP described it as sums you could retire on. Because she said that if SIL paid nothing else but the debt for the rest of her life she might be able to pay it off. Given that a woman who is of the age to have children, even if she worked at minimum wage for the rest of her life, would be looking at around half a million quid earnings in today's money alone, and on an average salary more like north of a million. And it's highly likely that both of those figures will rise, millions, or at least a million, would seem much more likely than hundreds of thousands.

Plus the OPs rather breathless account of the debts as some sort of insurmountable doom would have also implied.

Which is yet another reason why if someone tells him it should be someone other than the OP or the DH under her influence because it's likely to be embellished with a few exaggerated or sensationalised details along with a touch of 'Won't somebody think of the children!!'

Why on earth hasn't she gone bankrupt?

I don't think you can tell him. Yes he would want to know, yes it would be fair for him to know. You can't be the one to break it though.

Maybe he does know, maybe he loves her anyway.

BillSykesDog Some basic maths: let's say SIL earns £25k per annum, and has another thirty working years of life left. If she dedicated every penny to paying the debt, she could clear £750,000. That's assuming (a) that interest rates don't exist, and (b) that she doesn't need to eat, or pay bills, or drive to work. What if we generously allowed her to have half her pay to live on - you know, so that she could, say, hold down a job? - and then dedicated the other half to the debt. That way she could clear around £375,000 in her working life. These figures are obviously not an exact match for her situation, but hopefully they give you an insight into the fact that this scenario is nowhere near as unbelievable as you seem to think. Note also that I described the debt as a sum upon which you might even think about retiring. Speaking of fantastical, I don't know how you have managed the mind-boggling leap from that fairly reserved statement to an idea of multiple millions.

In fact, I'm not even sure why I'm writing this. It's pretty clear that you're reading what you want to read. From hereon I'll be disregarding your posts.

Well, if she swears she's told him everything, then you can just assume he knows it all and refer to it in conversation or even ask her bluntly how she will afford mat leave etc while still paying off her debts. She hasn't got a leg to stand on because she's told your DH that she's confessed all. That's less offensive than taking the guy aside for a chat - less underhand. Many families do ask very blunt questions - mine certainly do!

Which is yet another reason why if someone tells him it should be someone other than the OP or the DH under her influence because it's likely to be embellished with a few exaggerated or sensationalised details along with a touch of 'Won't somebody think of the children!!

I agree

I have a mind if we were to hear another side of your elaborate story ie your DHs POV, maybe he wouldn't be as keen as you are to sit down with a bloke he's only known for 2/3 months via his DSis, and discuss in detail her life and finances. If he were though that would be his call, even their parents. Although it would seem best to help her to seriously sort out some debt advice, at this stage. But you seem hellbent on wanting to scupper her relationship chances as the best and most immediate option.

This is the story that just "keeps on giving" though, isn't it. Now its "she is talking babies in front of us and this man". You say you don't know him yet but he "seems like a good person" & "she is steering the ship". Oh, and you are also worried about affording retirement homes for the parents - bloody hell, thats "far ahead thinking" isn''t it?! How on earth would you even know how things will pan out on that score? & you're roping SILs life circumstances into it all

I still don't agree with him being told but yes, if he is then it really shouldn't come from you - you are way over-invested and the way you describe it all is a bit much, like a story

You may find you are the one left with egg on your face in the end however, whilst we all may want to do something "for the best" its wiser to reign it in a bit even if you are going to take action, or you will come across in a way thats sly at best, troublemaker to be ignored at worst. I have a mind if we could hear your DHs POV he'd be nowhere near as keen as you to sit down with some bloke he only met 2/3 months ago via his DSis, and have a deep discussion with him about his DSis life and finances. But - if this is going to happen - best if he tells him and you are out of the room. If you can stand to miss the juicy details, that is

Your SIL lacks common sense as well as financial sense. I hope she has a good mate - or this man if he's a good one - who will march her off to Step Change or some such and get her debts and finances sorted once and for all, then they can take life from there, there'll be no need for you to be over involved at all then

Because the OP described it as sums you could retire on

And you automatically assumed millions? Talk about fantastical.