To think divorce absolutely does affect children

[springtimevintagedream]

I realise it's sometimes the only option, but AIBU to think there's too much of a casual attitude towards the impact it has on children, possibly because it's so common?

I'm not talking about abusive relationships where it's definitely better for the abused not to stay. But in some cases do you think it can be quite selfish?

Aware it's a contentious issue.

Those are also individual cases, but you mentioned literature that you never produced.
And I don't think anyone would say that children are always happier. Which people have been saying.

But that is not 'divorce', Spring. Or 'getting divorced'.

That is a person who is supposedly an adult and a parent behaving like a two year old. They could equally stay married and be a big overgrown two year old. How would that benefit the children? It would be the same unhealthy behaviour only with a wedding ring on the third finger of the left hand.

Selfish people tell themselves lies all the time, because basically other people don't matter all that much to them but their conscience pricks them just enough to make them tell themselves the lie. They could equally stay in the relationship and feel completely wonderful about themselves being such saints, and remind the children what a sacrifice they made for them.

Lots of selfish people place burdens on children, married or divorced. 'You will go to Oxbridge!' - 'You will play football and you will like it whether you like it or not!' - 'You will be a poet, not a miner!' Etc.

And I would love to see the literature...

Of course divorce affects children. I would've been devastated if my parents split up - but they were happily married, so of course I would've been.

Yes, it affects children. But that doesn't mean it's not sometimes the right thing to do.

I think, summary, we are actually all agreeing, math. It is when parents don't support and manage the emotions of their dc adequately in any scenario, but on this thread we are discussing divorce, that is the problem.

In RL I see a lot of blind, selfish behaviour and attitudes from divorcing parents. And again, that's what we are discussing here.

I wish I could give examples but I can't as it's unfair and unwise to post about other people's lives in any detail. But people close to me are ignoring their children who are metaphorically screaming for help and saying they are fine - that's because the parent themselves are happy, out of their dull/unhappy marriage and in new relationships. It's fine to get out of a marriage, it's fine to have new partners, it is - I'm sure we're all agreed - not fine to do that to the detriment of your dc who are not ready to 'move on', who are grieving, who are moving houses and/or schools, who are seeing far less of one beloved parent etc etc.

I'm glad it's easier for parents to divorce. Much better than the alternative, people forced to stay in miserable marriages because they have no choice. The problem is not divorce per se but the way it's handled - change is always unsettling. If both parents behave well then any damage will be minimised. They don't always but then people who are married don't always behave well either. A toxic family relationship where the pages remain married can be terribly damaging - I'm sure this will already have been pointed out though.

Interesting assumption too that marriage is the optimum model for raising a family. Not necessarily the case.

My parents didn't divorce as they were never married.
But I'm so glad they split up. They argued all the time. They are so different it didn't make either of them very happy.
It wasn't terrible or horrible for me. And I completely get it and am glad they split.
Why do you presume kids just want parents together no matter how unhappy they are?

I think divorce does damage children, but can also resolve an unhappy situation.
In my experience, it is the relationships that come afterwards that can cause real damage; the bitterness and resentment at divided loyalties with parents,step parents and new families. (Not always, I know, but too frequently, based on observations of many primary classes.)

I think divorce does damage children, but can also resolve an unhappy situation.

I agree wholeheartedly with this. Divorce often shelters children from years in the middle of a war zone!

My parents divorce effected me, only in that it made my life so much better! Try living in a house literally split in two, my mum and I upstairs, my dad downstairs slowly wrecking the house, the arguments, the enforced poverty. When my was finally made to leave after my mum divorced him (a process he chose to ignore) it was like my life changing from black and white to colour. A peaceful home and money coming in that wasn't deliberately being wasted in the pub.

In most, if not all cases divorce is about one or both parents being unhappy rather than bored. No one wants to be raised by unhappy parents, better they divorce and have the chance to find someone who does make them happy, or be happy single. As for boredom I think that's probably normal in long term relationships, i don't believe many people divorce because they are bored.

My dcs love doing things with both their parents. Even if happily divorced, I don't suppose that would happen very often, and not at all if either of us got new partners.

My dcs love doing things with both their parents. this doesn't really work for children if the only thing their parents do together is fight.

I know that absolutely. I'm just commenting on the view that having two separate, but happy, parents is no loss compared to two together but happy parents.
It's also possible that a single parent will fight with a new partner, of course.

Yes and then we get back to a strange assumption that people are always happier out of an unhappy marriage and that consequent relationships are/will be happier than the marriage. I think second marriages more likely to fail than first, but that could be outdated stats - I can't check right now. Again, anecdotally, I know two second marriages that ended, one after three years, one after four. Both related to compilations with children and step family scenarios. And again, I know that's not always the case!

Divorce does affect children negatively, although in many cases it is the lesser of two evils and absolutely the right thing to do.
In my experience it is the way that the divorce is handled and the behaviour of the parents (and new partners) and wider family that has the potential to do the most damage. Both very quickly embarked on a string of new relationships and we were just expected to go along with things. No introduction, no taking things slowly, just new people appearing in our homes and lives. New partners were given total priority over us. We were passed between houses and constantly living out a suitcase. Consequently, I grew up to have mental health issues, a lack of stability and problems with trust. So although my parents marriage was deeply unhappy, the aftermath of the divorce was far worse. The other thing is, you might feel as if you have put all your issues to bed, but every time an important life event takes place (your own marriage, birth of your own children), everything gets dredged up again.
I don't judge anyone for being divorced. However, it is true that childrens feelings are often minimised, particularly if they are older. In my case, because I was a teenager, my parents and wider family members discussed details in front of me that I just didn't need to hear.
I think that as a society we should judge adulterers and those who get involved with married people far more harshly, because the inevitable fall out for the children is extremely damaging.

You know, it's also possible for people to be perfectly happy and bring up their children without being in a relationship.

I realise this may be a radical concept for some people, but it does happen.

YANBU. Wouldn't you be affected if you had to leave your home every weekend and stay elsewhere? Wouldn't you be affected if your normal life was to not see one of your parents for 3 days at a time? So why wouldn't a child?

I totally don't get the attitude of "You only have one life". Er, hello? So do your kids!
Another one that makes me wince is the idea that it's mean-spirited and unkind to bring up a subject that might make divorcees feel guilty. How can possibly hurting people's feelings be dreadful but totally upending children's lives be a necessary evil?
Then there's the argument that the spouse is lazy or a manchild and doesn't mind the kids properly. So the solution to that is to have the kids stuck with him by themselves all weekend?

There will always be necessary divorces for (IMO) abuse, criminality, violence etc so it is not practicable to legislate against divorce. The only thing then to do is to engage in discussion like the op has done as it might stop some children having to undergo this. She is dead right that there this casual attitude in society that the marriage simply broke down. Even the use of the passive tense is telling. It is something that just happened to happen to the couple rather than something one or both of them actively brought about. I think we as a society need to change that attitude to one where divorce where there are children involved is seen as a sad last resort. This doesn't of course mean it needs to be stigmatized.

You have got a hard time on here with posters talking of abusive relationships which you specifically said you weren't referring to and also posters talking of being left by their spouse where obviously you can't stop a divorce if the other person is hellbent on divorcing you.

What people most have an issue with the OP is that she claims that everyone and literature says that children are not affected.
But she has produced no evidence of any literature that claims it.

So, it looks like the OP is creating an argument out of thin air.

Mummyusername
Why are you ignoring those of us that had parents who split but weren't unhappy about it and think it was a good thing?

I think it's about the type of parent you are. If you are a selfish person and just 'can't be bothered to make a relationship work ' then maybe you are not going to be a great parent anyway, regardless of a divorce. Divorce does impact children of course but so does just shit parenting. My point is surely the issue is - how you are as a parent and the effort you make to protect and help your kids through divorce is what is important. If you are so stupid and selfish to blithely think you can do what you want and divorce won't impact your kids, then you probably aren't a great parent anyway, divorce or no divorce. The vast vast vast majority of people who divorce obsess for years about it trying to avoid it for the sake of the kids and don't take it lightly. For the few who do treat it as if the kids won't care, they probably aren't great parents anyway and their kids will be impacted by that, them just being crap parents. and if they are great parents and do everything they can to make it ok for the kids, then that is better than being in a bad marriage.

And I really really do think OP that there are always reasons, usually good ones. Maybe you are just not good enough friends with these people to be confided in. Maybe they have sex / money / emotional upset issues. If someone is getting divorced, what are they supposed to do? Put out a press release so all and sundry at the school know the details?? Sometimes you just can't tell everyone everything. It may seem to you there is no reason and they may tell you there is no reason. But of course there is a reason.

...and also posters talking of being left by their spouse where obviously you can't stop a divorce if the other person is hellbent on divorcing you

This reads almost as if you're saying there's nothing we can do about divorce instigated by men, but women should certainly never instigate it! Think about it...

Reading MN for many years now it did come to my mind that some people decide to divorce too lightly.

My husband is moving out tomorrow and I am sort of hoping that DC (aged 8 and 5) will not notice. Of course, they will.

DH had affairs and is a pretty crap father, but I would have worked on the marriage and forgiven if he showed that he wanted to save it. Instead, he complained about the lack of sex and decided to move out. There is simply nothing I can do as he is not interested. The best I can do now is to be there for my DC more than ever.

I a totally for both parents working very hard to save the marriage but if one isn't there is only so much you can do.

I have no doubt that DC are going to be affected :(

The fact that one hand can't clap was something that didn't occur to the OP when she composed her ill conceived opener.

I don't think we are in agreement Yeahsure. You are calling the problem 'divorce'. The problem is not divorce. The problem is selfish people, or narcissists at the most extreme. Selfishness affects children badly in homes where the parents are married too.

Here are a few examples of selfishness:
Man knows he is currently looking for somewhere to move into when he leaves the family home in approximately four months. Five year old doesn't know he will be leaving, and enjoys the new nightly routine of daddy reading a bedtime story to her. The routine got started just about the time he started looking for a place to rent. Routine comes to a screeching halt when he moves out.

Stbxw finds a text the man sent to his GF that read 'Just finished reading [child] her bedtime story, thinking of you, xxxxx'. Child is left without a bedtime story when daddy leaves. GF is left with all kinds of warm and fuzzy impressions of this man who has basically used his child the way some men use puppies when trying to impress the opposite sex.

The man was my exH. He also told the older children he was looking for somewhere to rent while driving them to school, then dumped them on the curb outside the school. Luckily he came back home and told me what he had done, with great pride, as if he had accomplished something important. Otherwise the children would have been left in school all day to deal with that alone.

How can possibly hurting people's feelings be dreadful but totally upending children's lives be a necessary evil?
The answer is in the paragraphs above. There are lots and lots of divorced people who got divorced for very sound reasons and Springtime's blithe OP was shocking in its level of ignorance and callousness.

It absolutely was a necessary evil for me to divorce that selfish and angry man. The only intolerable thing for the children about the divorce as it turned out was the burden of visitation with him, which resulted in none of them talking to him voluntarily once they turned 18.

Where is the literature to support the contention that people left, right and centre get divorced for flimsy reasons? 'Life is too short' - 'YOLO', whatever...

I really wish some posters here would stop being so skittish about identifying the sources of their impressions.

If none of that is to be forthcoming then what we have is a few judgey posters hiding behind concern for children, taking a cruel swipe at people whose lives may have fallen down around their feet but who soldier on and do their utmost for their children, trying really hard to shield them from the fallout both emotional and financial and every other way you can imagine (or can't imagine in the case of Spring et al).

And also it must be said, often in the teeth of serious difficulties thrown in their path by the child support 'system' and the toxic influence of the menz rights movement and downright misogyny on the family courts, not to mention the hostility of the workplace to the needs of single women who are parents, trying to support their families.

I do know of someone who left her husband taking their two small children with her because the spark had gone in her marriage and she wasn't 'in love' with her husband. She really wanted more excitement in her life. She does look very happy these days, but I do judge her slightly. Her smallest was a baby when she left but the older child was devastated.

'Know of' meaning you don't know them certainly not well so can't possibly know if there were other more serious 'worthy' reasons for the split.

Only my best friend knows my ex had me up against a wall by my throat!