To be angry HR made this (relatively minor) assumption?

[SpaceCadet4000]

My DH and I got married last August. I made the decision to keep my surname and continue to use the title Ms. I don't mind if other people choose to change their name, but I personally am uncomfortable with the historical and gendered connotations of name changing. This have never been an issue- I just select the Ms box when filling in forms, and I don't shout about it to other people.

However, I have recently started a new job. On my second day I went for my induction with HR where they collected details about my next of kin (mentioned it was my husband as they needed the relationship stated), whether I wanted a pension, my NI number etc. All fairly innocuous, and actually very little form filling on my part, and certainly no disclosure of my title.

As I joined close to payday I received my pay check late through the post- it's addressed to Mrs Space Cadet. This suggests that the HR advisor has clearly assumed I'm a Mrs based on our conversation.

It's minor, and I assume fairly quick to rectify, but I feel really angry that someone else has made this decision about me. I'm no special snowflake, but I'm dismayed that my identity has been so casually undermined. The office culture is fairly conservative, so I also feel like I'll be judged as an SJW for asking for it to be changed.

AIBU to just email them and ask for it to be changed?

Ms. magazine didn't really have a lot to do with it. Its circulation was always really small.

There are still people who use Mrs Lass, but almost no one does in a professional context. I think one reason it caught on fast is that it is practical. Also the US government adopted it early. My mother was a civilian employee of the military and they were using it in the 1970s. When I began practicing law in the mid-1980s, it was already the norm in the legal profession.

And I think one reason that it has had little resistance is that many Americans, especially in the South where I live, have always pronounced Mrs as Miz so there wasn't all this "I hate the sound" business that pops up so often when this is discussed on MN.

So it was a matter of increasing use over time. And I've said before, jokingly, that maybe there is more resistance in the UK because titles are more important there. Perhaps that's not a joke.

Thank you. I was sceptical that the more conservative elements in US society would have taken this on board just because Gloria Steinem thought it was a good idea !.

So far as hating the sound this Huffington article about France officially dropping Mademoiselle made sense to me

Yet in the UK, if a similar initiative were to become official, how many unmarried British women would rush to be known as ‘Mrs’? Within British culture, being designated ‘the missus’ carries significantly less glamorous and dignified connotations than ‘Madame’

Little Miss Know Your Place - Are You a Miss, a Ms or a Mrs?
m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/1361675

Dylan the choice isn't there so you can't-I did put that in on of my replies that this fact is just as discriminatory as there being a Miss, Ms and Mrs. My husband would happily use a Married Man title but he's not able to (although he's not known as Mr but that is beside the point)

The fact an equivalent title doesn't exit isn't an accident. It reflects the fact that men gain status by age (the master to mister switch) not their relationship to a woman. There's never been any serious attempt to create one either.

Mind you, if your husband wanted to facilitate such a change, there's nothing stopping him writing 'Married Mister' in the other section where a title is asked for.

Then EBearhug maybe we should be demanding men change their names not slating women who choose to?

Nope. I'm firmly in favour of no titles at all.

Having just skimmed this thread, I'm more than a little annoyed the women suggesting I am hampering equality by choosing to be referred to as Mrs Maried Name. It does not imply or confer any subservience or inequality in my relationship. I chose not to double barrel for reasons of practicality. I'm very happy for others to know I'm married, so is my husband (hence his wearing of a wedding ring, a relatively recent cultural change).
If you want to be known as Ms I have no issue whatsoever with that. Surely the issue here, is simply that our preferred modes of address should be inquired for and the respected. Not some feminist infighting. Frankly I don't find it very feminist to tell me being called Mrs is letting the side down!
I am a feminist too!

This is a very interesting article about this whole idea of whether a choice is a feminist choice because a woman makes it.

I agree primary. though I am probably not a feminist, I probably more closely align to being a humanist I suppose. I am sure that people are on the receiving end of discrimination for all sorts of things but I think in the UK culture that it doesn't really compare with how people are treated for their gender etc in other cultures. I'm not saying that equality/parity doesn't matter, or that an accumulation of small inadvertent sexist behaviours wouldn't mount up and annoy you, but until someone gives me evidence of when someone has been unfairly treated because they used Mrs instead of Ms then I'll continue not to sweat the small stuff.

I suppose that if I don't feel discriminated against then whether I am or not isn't particular relevant to me. I've definitely mellowed a lot in my older age.

I think there are bigger things for feminist activity to be aimed at that does affect people in a big way such as genital mutilation, child brides and many many more.

Hear hear! OneMagnum! Primary you also said pretty much what I did about 10 pages ago 👍

You can be a feminist and a humanist at the same time- just as there are Christian and atheist feminists.

Can I ask, do you really think that the decisions you make have no impact at all on other people? Do you think that you are in a vacuum? Like John Donne's island?

Least you didn't get Mr for 2 years like I did.

No I don't think I live in a vacuum but if you want to go down that route then those choosing to use Ms have an affect on those who choose Mrs as well. I've still yet to have someone give a specific example of where the decision to use Mrs rather than Ms has caused them to be treated unfairly.

I think it's perfectly valid to have a free choice which to use in this scenario. Anyone who feels that they are having a miserable life and and are severely effected by the people exercising this particular free choice maybe need to have their bumps felt.

If I was choosing to run an elephant farm in my back garden or drive on the motorway at 20mph i'd be prepared to admit I was BU and that my choices were definitely affecting others. For using Mrs when others would like me to use Ms, they can suck it up.

I think if you are a humanist then there is really no need to be a feminist - it's like a subsection, and the example of atheist and christian feminists is a bit odd.

The point I am trying to make, obviously incompetently, is that the titles used to differentiate between different groups of women are exclusively to do with their relationship with men. And in the case of "maiden name" to do with their sexual experience or lack of it. Men are defined simply by boyhood or adulthood. This sort of thing perpetuates the unspoken, unconscious view that a significant chunk of a woman's "value" is defined, not by her girlhood or adulthood, but by her relationship with men. So continuing to use the titles perpetuated the mindset where women are thought of in that way. As adjuncts to men. As beings that are not granted fully adult status until marriage.

"I think if you are a humanist then there is really no need to be a feminist - it's like a subsection, and the example of atheist and christian feminists is a bit odd."

Sorry, I think our definitions of "humanist" must be different.

I think the issue is partly about indivdual versus community view of self. Mrs does make an implicit reference to a spouse (not necessarily a man!) but you are choosing to view that in a pejorative way. I'm connected to other people and vice versa. It's not a implied inferiority.

I do understand what you are saying but on a practical basis I don't think it really applies and I don't believe that anyone really thinks like that consciously or unconsciously hence the lack of discrimination actually happening compared to what people believe might happen.

If it genuinely makes people feel they are less likely to be discriminated against or feel that it lessens their being, identity and/or mental health etc etc to use Ms then they should absolutely go for it. I personally don't want to and it's nothing to do with me being defined in relation to men. I am positive that men (in our culture anyway) couldn't give a shit what title we use and neither do a significant amount of women based on this thread.

I just think there are honestly bigger fish to fry and it's really of very little consequence. I appreciate we differ in view and I'm not asking anyone to change from Mrs to Ms but if it did come down to a two horse race then I'd definitely ditch Ms as I simply don't like it. I don't like the attitude that "woman" equals good and "man" equals bad and that we can only become more on a par by doing someone else down. Maybe it's because I'm a mother of sons rather than of girls? I feel more affinity with the male species than i otherwise might have I suppose. I grew up in a family of mixed boys and girls but my mum was definitely in charge and in DHs house growing up it was the same. Anyway I mainly resent the tone on this thread that I am somehow less of a woman or that I simply don't understand because I too downtrodden to do so. Whereas I see myself as an intelligent woman who has worked for over 30 years, has supported her family, worked in partnership with her husband to raise her children, kept a roof over their heads and food on the table. i wouldn't say that I "proud" to be a wife, I really wasn't that bothered about being married at all but DH wanted to show a commitment since he had previously lived with someone long term so in a way wanted to prove that this was for keeps. However I see our family as our own tribe in a way - we all belong to it and find shelter in it and it has one name. I took DHs but we could easily have done it the other way round - he cared less about that than i did and did raise whether i'd rather not just keep my own name but I chose not to. So anyway I see that as a positive emotional bond we all have - I appreciate that others may have that bond without it though.

I also think there are bigger inequalities in the world and the country than those between women and men tbh.

In conclusion, it's just a bit meh to me as I am perfectly happy with the way I am treated, both in work and in society. I have had a mixture of male and female managers and my company is well represented by woman at the top. I've never had my gender or marital status be an issue when I've wanted to progress. I'm in Scotland where the majority of the political parties are led by women.

I've still yet to have someone give a specific example of where the decision to use Mrs rather than Ms has caused them to be treated unfairly.

The unfairness is that you, and many other women, have a title that signals their marital status, and men do not. That is unfair to women as a class.

Oh fuck off - how does that actually demonstrate itself on a practical basis?

You could say equally that it's unfair to men. It's not unfair, it's just not the same. Fairness doesn't always mean equal or the same.

The unfairness is that you, and many other women, have a title that signals their marital status, and men do not. That is unfair to women as a class.

Overthought, contrived bollocks.

This thread just makes me want to say the things that I say to my children:

Life isn't always fair but if you only think about that stuff you'll end up bitter and twisted
Treat others as you'd like to be treated
Sometimes it's better to just suck it up and save your energy for something or someone more important
Just because you are paranoid it doesn't always mean that everyone is out to get you
People are always more important than things
Look both ways before you cross the road
Wash your hands after you've been to the toilet
etc etc.

It does not imply or confer any subservience or inequality in my relationship. I chose not to double barrel for reasons of practicality. I'm very happy for others to know I'm married, so is my husband (hence his wearing of a wedding ring, a relatively recent cultural change)

No one said it did. That misses the point. The point is why is it necessary to have a special title to show a woman is married? Simply that - what purpose does it serve? And if it is so important why don't men need a special " ooh look at me I'm married" title.

Rings are just pieces of jewellery.I don't even have a wedding ring. I've always worn a ring on that finger. My husband never wears any jewellery. There's not a special drop down box for "ring wearers " and "non ring wearers"

And Bert's explanation of humanism is correct.

it's not the unfairness really. It's the fact that defining women by their relationship to men, or whether or not they are virgins perpetuates a mindset that is- unhelpful.

"Overthought, contrived bollocks."

Better overthought than underthought!

Humanism is a philosophical and ethical stance that emphasizes the value and agency of human beings, individually and collectively, and generally prefers critical thinking and evidence (rationalism, empiricism) over acceptance of dogma or superstition

I'm really not seeing how being a humanist is an alternative to being a feminist. You can be a Christian feminist or a humanist feminist.

Well as Bert didn't give any explanation of humanist I'm wondering how it can be correct She said it was possible to be a humanist and a feminist. I didn't disagree I just said I couldn't see the point.

The point is why is it necessary to have a special title to show a woman is married? Simply that - what purpose does it serve? And if it is so important why don't men need a special " ooh look at me I'm married" title.

It's not necessary, that is the point, but it exists and people choose to use it - does it need a purpose?

And it's not really about whether a ring is a piece of jewellry, people denote special meaning to a wedding ring as it is to them a symbol of whatever they decide - just because you don't that doesn't make it not so. I am sure there are people who use Mrs that don't wear rings just as there are people who are Ms who do.

it's not the unfairness really. It's the fact that defining women by their relationship to men, or whether or not they are virgins perpetuates a mindset that is- unhelpful.

In what way exactly has that manifested itself?

Humanism is a philosophical and ethical stance that emphasizes the value and agency of human beings, individually and collectively,

Because if you are doing this for all human beings then you don't need to concentrate on the subset of female or old or poor or whatever.

..and I'm still wondering what the feck religion (i.e. blind faith) has to do with anything I appreciate you can be an atheist or christian feminist but it's got bugger all to do with conversation.