'What British Muslims Really Think'.

[ThirtyNineWeeks]

This Ch4 documentary can't possibly be representative of all British Muslims when only 1081 were polled......can it?

AIBU to think that, for some, this kind of documentary will only ever be seen as evidence of 'Islamophobia'?
And the fact that it is made by Channel 4 will immediately turn lots of folks off..

meantn to say "are hardly modest".

"imams have said perfume is forbidden"

I have never heard that, quite the contrary.

So now Muslims are being criticised for being immodest?

I don't see anyone criticising, just pointing out the hypocrisy. If head coverings are all about modesty wearing them with a face full of slap and a mini skirt kind of defeats their purpose which leads me to believe the young girls who wear them are making a political statement, not attempting to be modest.

Notice I said some Imams not all. There was one after Cologne who came out with that gem and another reported saying similar recently. It confused me as most of the Muslim ladies I know love their smelliest and luxury stuff.

I wasn't criticising in fact One of my Muslim friends always looks great, she takes a lot of pride in looking good and she's the one who has the little make up business. You see this is what I don't understand most Muslim ladies I know wear make up, they look perfectly modest, I think the girls look great in their skinny jeans they are perfectly covered up enough, showing their hair would not make them any less modest, certainly in my eyes. As a pagan we view the body as a natural thing to be proud of not anything to be hidden away. It is to be celebrated indeed. I think it is highlighted as almost a contradiction and confusion over some of the messages we are given about Islam.

You do seem to be reading an intention into my words that isn't there, are you just itching to find an offence where there is none?

Smellies not smelliest stupid iPad correcting me!

Nobody is telling anyone what they can and can't believe. That's a personal choice. The argument is entirely based around whether these beliefs should also enter public processes such as education, health, food administration and the like. I may believe that I can cure children's ADHD by hanging them upside down for two weeks at a time so that blood gets to their brain. The fact that I believe this to be the case is nether here nor there. I believe it. So what. However, if the NHS started this practice, or the police turned a blind eye to it, or our legal system didn't prosecute the people perpetuating it, then we have a problem. The reason why we have a problem is because there is no evidence that this practice works. If we publicly pander to whimsical beliefs, then we are in trouble. I am banging the drum for evidence-based practice because it has become apparent that this point is almost never articulated more widely such as in our media. People are genuinely struggling with what is right, acceptable, or wrong, and that's entirely to do with the layers of political and social discourse, which have stopped people demanding that our public life conforms to evidence-based actions. It's a simple point and people know this intuitively, but we don't seem to have an ability to argue effectively for it. People aren't being xenophobic or racist when they demand evidence. I don't think anyone cares where knowledge comes from as long as there is evidence that it works or doesn't work. Remember that Russian guy who invented the eyeball surgery that went on to become the laser treatment for shortsightedness? Yes, please, we'll have that. It works, has few side effects and improves people's quality of life.

Islam and perfume - it is forbidden if men other than her husband may smell it

islamqa.info/en/102329

But the ban comment comes from an Imam in Cologne - who said that women wearing perfume basically were asking to raped in Cologne on NYE - nice case of victim blaming...
www.ibtimes.co.uk/cologne-sex-attacks-imam-claims-women-wearing-perfume-provoked-360-assaults-by-north-africans-1539509

That's daft because you'd end up not wearing deodorant or having to wear unscented I guess. It appears most think it's a bit of flexible rule which I think is sensible. After all most blokes don't go around actively sniffing strange women and in a crowd and who would know who was wearing and who wasn't.

Nobody really is inspired to commit crime by perfume that's a very silly excuse and he was just trying to excuse the inexcusable I think.

Islam and perfume - it is forbidden if men other than her husband may smell it.

You must be joking! You can smell when my neighbours have been in the lift and where I lived there are a lot of me visitors / expats and there is definitely a penchant for very strong fragrances - including among those women who dress head to toe in black. And I've seen plenty of headscarves on top of skinny jeans and tight tops and sky high flashy shoes (even a hefty cleavage in a few instances). But these tend to be the wealthy ones - does wealth give a bit more freedom to wear the Jimmy Choos and Versace?

I think some of these supposedly knowledgeable (mainly) men open their mouths and say the first thing that comes onto their (empty) heads. Can you imagine being married to someone like that?

Mavis That first link I posted is from a website advising Muslim people 'Islam Question and Answer' to quote
Putting on perfume and going out with the aim of letting non-mahram men smell it. This is haraam, and is a major sin.
It was narrated from Abu Moosa (may Allaah be pleased with him) that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “If a woman puts on perfume and passes by people so that they can smell her fragrance, then she is such and such,” and he spoke sternly - meaning an adulteress. Narrated by Abu Dawood (4173) and al-Tirmidhi (2786); classed as saheeh by Ibn Daqeeq al-Eid in al-Iqtiraah (126) and by Shaykh al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Tirmidhi.
So they might wear it -but they shouldn't - although it does go on in great detail of how they should wear it to be attractive to their husband -if it pleases him -and only for him. It is ok to wear it in their husband's car or on the way to the Mosque if they are dropped off at the women's entrance and just sit with the women ... it is ok to wear it oin front of other women, or children ...just not when it might make other men consider her to be attractive....

Would the inmans rather the women smell of BO? I think I would want to tell the Inman to take a running jump if I followed Islam. Don't understand why anyone would bother.

Give me Christianity any day.

So shopping on Bond Street, on the bus down Oxford St, or schepping through Kensington gardens is ok. Other women OK (so no lesbins then)?

So women should be not seen, not heard and not even smelled... Unless a man wants them to.

I suspect if the focus on 'sin' was more on against greed, wife beating, murder, rape, child abuse.... rather than a woman being sniffable by a man then we might be getting somewhere. It seems that those with power put the focus on the everyday 'nonos' to stop people questioning the Big Things.

I have been in Iran on business twice I was appalled by the massive amount of complex eye make up (I don't wear any). I thought on advantage of the sexist homophobic state would be that women did not have to bother how they looked but instead as the only bit showing was eyes they went to town on them which as someone who is not fussed about clothes and appearance and who goes in for her career etc rather than woman as visiual object I found pretty awful. However we should not always go round blaming women for rules men impose on them - mern have tried to control women for thousands of years and "a woman's place is in the wrong".

Most strict religious groups where men prevail control how women dress much more than men and indeed often let the women look very sexy to please their husband when alone with him - it is all about women as property.

There is a good BBC series The Ascent of Women www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0693dsh which shows how once mankind settled down and grabbed land after about 1m years of freedom, hunger gathering etc, suddenly men started taking more control and the ups and downs of that (including some power women had in the middle east which was taken away).

It is hard to generalise about Islam due to its many different types but it's awful that 50% of UK muslim education for chidlren in the UK is that awful Saudi version which never prevailed amongst British Muslims until fairly recently (except a few rich women shopping in Harrods in the 70s).

"Give me Christianity any day."

Seriously?

Great to have an open debate about a topic that has up till now been suppressed by shouts of racists but why turn it into a Christianity v Islam thread?

Sports experience accounts are insightful and matches with the experience at our schools. It is a fact that Muslim culture in Europe, especially in Britain where they have more rights than in France and Germany has become a strong factor shaping British life. I work in marketing and the Muslim segment is super exciting for marketers, a lot of money being spent to target ads and pr at this group. Their strong identity, rules and customs are a dream for brands wanting to tailor their messages to engage with Muslim segments.

Iranian women are geberally very feminine though. It is generally loathed that they have to cover up to some Arab/Pakistani interpretation of the religion and if you look at pre revolution images and traditional art, you will see a culture that loves fashion, colour and dressing up.

I have fenake relatives there - teacher/lecturer/musician/social worker...

Arab/Pakistani interpretation

Definitely not a Pakistani interpretation.

Traditional Pakistani outfits are bright, colourful and usually tunics with trousers or Saris i.e. the same as Indian outfits.

There's a lot of annoyance in Pakistan too at the adoption of traditional Arabic dress and how jilbabs, niqabs and headscarves are supplanting centuries of IndoPak culture.

Oh my mistake. The feeling is among some is that he imported ideas from Pakistan. Not sure if there's truth there (or in the theory doing the rounds that he was a 'spy for the west' etc etc etc ).

How interesting to learn about Pakistani and Iranian (persian?) traditions regarding head covering. To me this indicates the fascist version of Islam is being pushed by (Saudi?) Arabic forces. Maybe time to stop blaming the West for everything and look at Arabic factors?

As an adopter I was shocked to learn that adoption is frowned a upon in Islam witch is very sad as the majority of Asian children in care are from a Muslim notebly Pakistani

Sadly have have come to the conclusion that Islam is not compatible with life in the uk

that adoption is frowned a upon in Islam

Wasn't always so..... In the early days of Islam's founding, Muhammed had an adopted son, Zayd, who was a freed slave.

Zayd was married to Zainab, until one day Muhammed decided he wanted her.

Obviously this raised a lot of eyebrows, Zayd being his son - and the wives of sons being prohibited in marriage.

Thus conveniently a Quranic verse was sent down which decreed that adopted children were not true children:

And he has not made your adopted sons your [true] sons quran.com/33

This allowed him to lawfully marry his daughter-in-law...which he duly did.

Henceforth adoption is prohibited, but you can be a care-giver and take in children. These children do not have the same rights in Sharia as biological children - no inheritance and they cannot take the surname of 'their parents'

I suspect its all down to inheritance and money/land then. What's the bottom line on blood and organ donations?

Persians were Zoroastrians back in the day anyway (like Freddie Mercury). I suspect there are few if any left there now. Must Google it...

Islam teaches that the body must not be defiled after death (and buried within 24 hours), yet the very sensible view of the Muslim Council of Great Britain over rides this to allow organ transplants. 'If you save a life it is as if you have saved the life of the whole of mankind' (Qur'an).
Generally educated, free thinking Muslims support the spirit of Sharia (the Qur'an, the hadith and actions of Mohammed) in matters such as organ donation and live by the belief that you should always try to do good in your actions. Many of these teachings are at odds with the violence displayed by jihadist organisations -
'Hate your enemy mildly, he might become your friend one day' (Hadith)

I'm not Blue Rocks but as a Christian I do find Islam hard to fathom.

It's like everyone is coming up with their own interpretation of Islam. Pathetic!
Go back to pre 9/11- it was never like this.

The thing is in a way most Muslims themselves have their own personal experience of Islam and way of being. As I said up thread some of my friends have a glass of wine, some veil some don't, some wear skinny jeans, some wear lots of make up, some wear none. As I see it your spirituality is yours to experience and purely between you and whatever deity you choose. The issues seem to be caused when people kind of start inventing rules. Does God care what you wear? Probably not. Political Islam has made it the issue it is and the spread of wahabism. I think it's up to Muslims where they see their faith going and tackling this minority. No faith should be a one size fits all thing.