'What British Muslims Really Think'.

[ThirtyNineWeeks]

This Ch4 documentary can't possibly be representative of all British Muslims when only 1081 were polled......can it?

AIBU to think that, for some, this kind of documentary will only ever be seen as evidence of 'Islamophobia'?
And the fact that it is made by Channel 4 will immediately turn lots of folks off..

So, in fact, Western culture is atheism

I wouldn't have said that exactly; certainly the west contains many people of faith, and even those who claim none will often attend a Christmas carol service, church wedding or whatever. Maybe it's more that most westerners tend not to allow religion to drive every aspect of their daily lives - that they wear their religion lightly if that makes sense?

I read recently that 42 mosques in the UK hosted a radical preacher whose message was " " non believers should be killed" He delivered 42 sermons on Jihad in huge gatherings in cities of the UK. He spoke at Britains leding Deobandi seminary, at mosques in east London, Birmingham, Deswbury, Batley, Blackburn and Burnley. Young Britons were told it was their duty to go to Pakistan for weapons training This was in 1993.

We are now reaping the terrors of such hate sermons.

Why did 42 mosques of a peaceful religion host this man?

Why should we not ask pertinent questions of Islam?

sorry his name is Masood Azar.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-35893123

^^ deeply woryring

What effective and positive strategies are there, or could there be to dilute hostile Islamist tendencies?

Community engagement and outreach?
Surveillance?
Outlaw external i.e. Saudi funding of British mosques?

what else?

So because of 42 mosques, you want to ask questions of a worldwide religion?

The thing about Islam really is (I think) is that it needs its own Enlightenment or Reformation. It needs to adapt and evolve. And that isn't happening with enough liberal voices speaking

I thought this too but how can Islam go through this stage when the Koran is the word of God. It can't be compared to Christianity in that sense

People can choose to be more progressive and take from Islam what suits them as many have done and some countries have done but thats the religion itself and I do not think it will evolve in the same way

Islam itself is not a progressive religion (not sure any are) and it is certainly not equal it may have been better for women 1000 years ago but we have progressed

I want to ask why - so many mosques hosted this extremist preacher and why this year, there was much support by Immans in the UK for a man who murdered a politician for blaspheming in Pakistan.

Link, please. If it's the Hadith then please be warned I shall return with my own documented 'truths' from there.

Copying and pasting from an anti-Islamic hate site which deliberately misquotes Quran and hadith does not count as truth from the hadiths.

But then you can't even distinguish between arranged marriage and forced marriage, either.

You also don't seem to understand that it's not Muslims who want to eradicate all forms of Christianity from British public life. We're not the enemy you think we are.

greeb Arranged vs forced marriages - this is an interesting drama I've just watched
www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p03nnns9/murdered-by-my-father
From the BBC 3 website
Murdered By My Father is the story of the ‘honour’ killing of a 16-year-old girl by her father, a riveting exploration of how family love and duty turned to violence, and murder, in a suburban British home.

Executive Producer Aysha Rafaele says: “I feel privileged to be able to help give voice to the many daughters out there who have lost their lives in the name of protecting their family’s honour – and very excited at discovering Vinay Patel - a brilliant young new talent to tell this important and devastating tale.”

Based on the testimonies of a range of individuals, many of whom have never spoken in public, as well as charities and institutions set up to deal with the problem of honour-based violence, Murdered By My Father broadcasts in the year of the first national memorial day for the victims of honour killing. Police records suggest this type of crime has increased by 47 per cent since 2009, with the main charity supporting victims reporting an average of 700 calls for help every month.

She isn't being 'forced' - it is a long standing 'arrangement' - it is her duty and she tries to accept what is expected of her (and of her father). How many girls do just accept the arrangement? Do their duty? And how many could then freely leave their marriage?

The one where Islam tells them they have to obey their husband in all things - so marital rape does not exist, and the husband can beat his wife - maybe they could go to the Sharia court and get told to go back? Or get a divorce and lose their children to their husband's family?

I know this is purely fiction but there is one of the stories in East West by Salman Rushdie where a Pakistani girl is going to get permission to go to England to be with her (arranged) finance. She gets given all the right answers in advance but then (apparently) deliberately gives the wrong answers so she doesn't have to go. You don't find out what happens to her afterwards (iirc -long time since I read it) but it does make you think - that was the only way she felt she could get out of her 'arranged' marriage -by trying to get someone in 'power' to take that decision out of her and her family's hands. I am pretty sure that really happens.

"We're not the enemy you think we are." It is always emphasised that there is no collective we where British Muslims are concerned.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/12181905/We-must-not-tolerate-British-imams-who-applaud-barbarism-in-Pakistan.html

" At that point the rest of the world might have shrugged its shoulders at yet another depressing tale of Third World barbarism, a parochial and violent dispute between people in a faraway country of which we know little.

Except that some of those who regard Qadri as a Muslim martyr and hero are not only British, but are senior leaders of the Muslim community here."

Muhammed Asim Hussain is an Imam from Bradford. His Facebook page has been “liked” nearly 136,000 times. On the day of Qadri’s execution he told his followers: “A dark day in the history of Pakistan; the day Ghazi Mumtaz was wrongfully executed and martyred in the way of Allah, when he did what he did in honour of the Prophet.”

"The thread of comments below this baffling statement contains more than a few from Muslims representing what must surely be the more mainstream view of these events among British Muslims: condemning the atrocity of the governor’s murder as an un-Muslim act of violence against democracy. Yet those who seek to defend the behaviour of the murderer do so without apparent shame or hesitancy. "

Muhammad Masood Qadiri, who presents a weekly programme on Ummah TV, available via Sky TV, told his Facebook followers: “The Great Hero of Islam Ghazi Mumtaz Hussain Qadiri has been martyred.” He then announced he would fly to Pakistan that day to attend the funeral.

We're not the enemy you think we are." It is always emphasised that there is no collective we where British Muslims are concerned.

The point I was making is that there is no widespread campaign from Muslims in Britain to remove Christianity from public life.

The people talking about removing collective worship in schools, faith schools and bishops in the House of Lords aren't Muslims, are they?

But no, you seem to to think you have some sort of "gotcha" moment instead, to make some wider point about it being ok to smear Muslims en masse.

Oh well, I'll leave you to it, of that's the sort of discussion you're desperate to have.

But where is anyone smearing muslims "en masse" Pontypines? Isn't this a bit like the PP who questioned the choices of 42 particular mosques, only to be told this was effectively asking questions of a worldwide religion?

I'm genuinely interested to know why there's this insistence that anyone raising a point about a specific incident or person is demonizing the whole ... unless it's simply an attempt to deflect, perhaps?

UmmBum,
Again, why do you wear the headscarf? Islam teaches that both men and women should dress modestly. No requirement for the veil.
Islam also teaches that the body must not be defiled after death (and buried within 24 hours), yet the very sensible view of the Muslim Council of Great Britain over rides this to allow organ transplants. 'If you save a life it is as if you have saved the life of the whole of mankind' (Qur'an).
I really do not get why some Muslims do extreme things in the name of their religion when it seems at odds with mostly reasonable Islamic teaching. Many of the extreme practices espoused by Muslims on the programme (boys hitting girls for not wearing the headscarf) is cultural and nothing to do with the true spirit of Islam.

The thread is about British Muslims, I have posted about links to extremism from British Mosques.

But after hearing the head teacher on the programme explaining how nine-year-old boys in her school were hitting girls' uncovered heads and calling them slags, I know why. Horrific.

Truly horrific. The 9 yr olds get that attitude from their older brothers & cousins, and they also watch radical Islamic TV on their laptops.

ipity - it cuts both ways
Any criticism of Islam has (in the past) been decried as 'Islamophobia'. It hasn't 'been allowed'. If anything it has led to 'othering'. A lack of integration. And the UK is a liberal society.
People can demonstrate on the streets saying death to the infidels etc. A fine line between freedom of speech and hate speech. (Can you imagine that being allowed on the streets of Saudi - banners saying death to all Muslims? ...or even in the UK come to think of it...)
Segregated meetings - blatant discrimination - allowed and accepted. Because of cultural and religious sensibilities. I could go on the list is endless.

And we are told to accept it, make allowances, turn a blind eye - because not all Muslims are like that. Islam doesn't equal Daesh/terrorists...they don't represent the majority of Muslims (even though attacks etc are done in the name of Allah).
And I believe that is true - your Islam is likely to be no worse than any religion in day to day life

(although I really don't like Islam's treatment of women - although I do understand in the 1st century AD some of the things would actually be in the interest of and for the protection of women - but things are (should be) very different now)
But then you on this thread previously spoke out on behalf of (all) Muslim women choosing to wear the veil. You have said 'we'.
But in fact (like everyone) you can only speak for your own experiences and your immediate circle - friends, family, acquaintances.
Instead of going into defensive mode you have to acknowledge what is (and has) been done in the name of your religion - as should Christians, Jews etc.
And say as a 'normal' Muslim don't agree...you condemn certain things. As I would condemn the actions of fundamental Christians (even though I don't consider myself a Christian any more).
That certain aspects (whether cultural or religious) can cause problems - be hard to reconcile with Western liberal values- like the forced vs arranged marriage thing.

But that rarely seems to happen - there seems to be a fear of doing so - why?

Is it through fear of a back lash? From who? Racists? or members of the Muslim community?

As Trevor Phillips said, we never hear of Hindophobia or Sikhophobia and those two religions are not oppressive and dominating to both followers and to the rest of us. It is only Islam, in all its forms, that seems to convey aggressive contempt to non-believers (the Infidel) and views the rest of humanity as not being quite human.

fourmummy ==== Those people who have survived having their throat cut state that it is the most agonising pain they have ever endured. I am totally against ritual slaughter because it is cruel and - I believe - it is connected to blood lust, i.e. the sex impulse gets muddled up with death & blood.

evidence that flu is caused by viruses and not evil spirits, etc.,etc.

And yet, fourmummy, we still have educated, rational African diplomats and politicians in the UN who still believe and carry on that mixture of African-Christian worship which will counter a spell they think has been put on them with another spell. My friend, an educated woman, is married to an African and that belief still simmers away. On returning from Ghana he suddenly noticed a mark on his forearm and became convinced someone had put a 'jealousy' mark on him. He was quite distressed about it, but settled down after a tongue-lashing from the wife about his being ridiculous.

UmmBum You wear a scarf, but many Muslim women in the age range of 40-60 do not and yet their children do. Why do you think children born in the UK seem more religious than their parents who were born overseas?

ThirtyNineWeeks The Regressive Left have a lot to answer for. (This term was coined by Maajid Nawaz).

I am also aware that if I for example moved to Pakistan I would be expected to follow many of the customs/social norms and fit in there. Quite right too. I wouldn't expect to introduce the British legal system there or wear bikini tops in the street there, no matter how strongly I felt. If I wanted to stay in that country I would need to try and belong.

Well said, Sporting. And if you went to Pakistan you would soon be told to cover up in no uncertain terms, even before you left Karachi airport!