'What British Muslims Really Think'.

[ThirtyNineWeeks]

This Ch4 documentary can't possibly be representative of all British Muslims when only 1081 were polled......can it?

AIBU to think that, for some, this kind of documentary will only ever be seen as evidence of 'Islamophobia'?
And the fact that it is made by Channel 4 will immediately turn lots of folks off..

Or rather shame on you for being so blinded by your prejudice and unfounded hatred.

Here, have some flowers!

Thirtynineweeks I am not sure what you meant when you wrote
Christians consider the bible to be the absolute word of God. Only deluded and heretic liberal 'Christians ' think otherwise.

An enormous number of non-heretical and not at all deluded Christians do not consider the Bible is the literal and absolute word of God. They nevertheless love God.

While we're on the subject of people being forced, what of slaves ? (we'll leave the morality of owning slaves to one side for now)

How many slaves are going to willingly consent to sex ?

Allah make them 'lawful' presumably so that muslim men could shag them guilt free (which is why ISIS are doing just that)

quran.com/4/24

He doesn't give a toss about the female captives.

And before anyone says this whole slavery thing is all historical and not relevant any more etc etc, Croydon Mosque still issuing guidance on their treatment !!!

www.croydonmosque.com/pdf/The_position_of_a_guardian_Wali_in_the_Nikah_of_a_mature_female.pdf

In the light of the Qur’an and Sunnah, when a young immature woman صغيره (i.e. who has not passed the age of puberty) or one who is not of sound mind and intellect or a female slave, performs her Nikah without the permission of her guardian, her Nikah would not be fulfilled. This is due to limitation and weakness in her understanding which may not be sufficient for her to make a decisive decision

I still don't understand why so many young Muslims appear to ignore the spirit of the Qur'an and the historical context in which Islam was founded. For the time (7th century CE) Islam was forward thinking in its treatment of women and attitudes to women working and owning property. Yet some modern Muslims appear to reject this and insist on wearing veils etc which is not an Islamic requirement. Therefore something else is prompting their behaviour. I would like to know just what is making young, intelligent Muslims adopt provocative attitudes and practices which are out of step with the spirit of Islam.
I would still like an answer to my previous post -
^Again, why do you wear the headscarf? Islam teaches that both men and women should dress modestly. No requirement for the veil.
Islam also teaches that the body must not be defiled after death (and buried within 24 hours), yet the very sensible view of the Muslim Council of Great Britain over rides this to allow organ transplants. 'If you save a life it is as if you have saved the life of the whole of mankind' (Qur'an).
I really do not get why some Muslims do extreme things in the name of their religion when it seems at odds with mostly reasonable Islamic teaching. Many of the extreme practices espoused by Muslims on the programme (boys hitting girls for not wearing the headscarf) is cultural and nothing to do with the true spirit of Islam^

I have Muslim friends who live on mainland Europe and have done so since fleeing war in the 1980s. They would not dream of covering and tell everyone that the veil is purely political and is adopted as much as an anti-Western symbol as a religious statement.

I'm interested in thoughts on this from UK Muslims?

Mistress your posts are always so sensible and reassuring. I continue to applaud your intelligence and bravery.

Many of the extreme practices espoused by Muslims on the programme (boys hitting girls for not wearing the headscarf) is cultural and nothing to do with the true spirit of Islam

yes but this is the big question isn't it - what is the true meaning, a man was allowed to come here and spout hate, some of his followers went onto attack us. They think that is the true spirit of islam.

The seeds he has sown way back have grown into angry brain washed young people.

mrsmuddle

You are wrong on your assertion that hijab is not a religious requirement. Head covering is mandated through various Hadith's and through this verse in the Quran corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=24&verse=31

The Quran says to 'draw the veil across the bosom'. The veil in this case refers to a khimar which was/is worn over the head, so in fact it's instructing women to drape this head covering also over the bust area.

Evening folks. Just a reminder that we're all about freedom of speech and a robust debate here, and we allow any opinion (that is politely expressed) on religions themselves but we won't allow posts that attack members of any religion, or stray into general religious hatred. We've already made a few deletions on this thread. If it continues we may have to delete the entire thread, which would be a shame as there are some interesting points being made. Bit of peace and love would probably not go amiss. Thanks!

Cut the waffle
UmmBum You wear a scarf, but many Muslim women in the age range of 40-60 do not and yet their children do. Why do you think children born in the UK seem more religious than their parents who were born overseas?

I once heard an interesting discussion about more younger Muslim women wearing a scarf on the radio. The reason given by a young Muslim woman during the conversation was that wearing the scarf/veil was ironically an enjoyment of Western freedom to express her religion openly according to her own individual choice.

In my opinion one possible reason for some young people to be more religious may be that it is so liberal here now that there is almost a pressure to have no moral rules at all and it feels terrifying. It also can feel utterly pointless and materialistic and hedonistic. So religion may bring back a sense of safety and a spirituality.

Another reason could be that if people feel they do not belong somewhere they look for a group that offers a sense of identitly and security

www.independent.co.uk/voices/the-muslim-council-of-britain-has-officially-decided-im-not-islamic-enough-but-i-never-did-anything-a6986976.html

^ interesting article

But their recent statement has wider, and potentially dangerous, implications for us all.

When Muslims start playing God in this way, religious prejudice, bigotry and hate will inevitably rise – including here in Britain. The MCB claims to be committed to “pluralism, peaceful coexistence and extend a hand of friendship and cooperation for the common good of all”, but seems to have a different rule when it comes to Ahmadiyya Muslims.

why so many young Muslims appear to ignore the spirit of the Qur'an and the historical context in which Islam was founded

They aren't ignoring the spirit or historical context of its founding. They are attempting to emulate those early Islamic marauders.
www.historynet.com/muhammad-the-warrior-prophet.htm

Islam was forward thinking in its treatment of women and attitudes to women working and owning property This is also another assertion that is without any corroboration.

We only have muslim say so regarding the poor treatment of pre-Islamic Arabian women. Yet Muhammed's first wife was a successful and wealthy business woman before Islam was even conceived. There were powerful Arabian queens such as Zenobia who led a revolt against the Romans.

Pre-Islamic Arabia also had female goddesses including the daughters of the moon god Allah (yes Allah was a moon god before he became the Allah) - Goddess Al-Lat, Goddess Al-Uzza, and Goddess Manat.

Robert Hoyland, an Oxford Historian, has a book 'Arabia and the Arabs from the Bronze Age to the Coming of Islam' which has a section on various pre-Islamic Arabian tribes. He found:

• evidence of matrilineal tribes, where lineage was determined through women. Children were regarded as belonging to their mothers, and not a male progenitor.

-Women had the right to easily divorce their husbands such that their husbands had to leave the homes, and not the women.

-Women were able to marry multiple men

• women could contract men in temporary marriage for the sake of producing offspring

• women could work and did so in roles outside the home such as public administrative officers

• women could maintain considerable financial independence

• women become overlords

Islam has done a great job at whitewashing and re-writing history to present itself in a favourable light and too many seem to just take it's word for it.

I am afraid like many religious people I find some Muslims a bit contendictory

And i fear that this new wave of women often young covering up is rather more political than real religious conviction

"Why do you think children born in the UK seem more religious than their parents who were born overseas?"

30-50 years ago there were many Muslims women living in Europe who did not feel the need to display their religion by wearing covering their head.

It is different today because the face of Islam has changed during this time. It has become more conservative and, in too many instances, extremist. I have read here and elsewhere that this is due to the power of Wahabi 'thinking' en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabism exported from Saudi. Saudi are stinking rich and own much of GB allegedly, they sponsor British mosques and buy people's lifelong loyalty, its like a PR marketing network brainwashing communities, especially children. I have heard it is rather common practice for Muslim families to send their primary children for religion lesson to mosque for several hours each day. Families who don't participate in this are looked down upon and gossiped about. they may loose their 'honour'.
Many children who are not encouraged to socialise with non-Muslim classmates by their parents find a home here and make friends with other Muslim children. The mosque and Islam becomes their home from home, the place they belong, the culture to be loyal to.

With the veil it seems to be a mix of the choice of the lady herself and possibly background. Some of my Muslim friends do not veil at all, some lightly veil with some hair showing, some wear a kind of tight veil which covers the shoulders, there also appears to be a fashion for some quite elaborately folded and piled up kind of headscarf mainly amongst the younger more fashionable ladies which just reaches the shoulders. One of DS friends mums wears the face veil but not the full black robes etc, she has a natty line in polka dot scarves which are very bright, she tends to wear very bright stuff all told, a very few ladies seem to wear the all black but it is becoming more common than certainly 10 years ago. I've no idea what the view might be within the official structure of the mosque etc. Any of the Muslim ladies might have a better idea of why the wide differences occur and I've no idea if my area is typical.

Most of the Muslim children at DS school do go to mosque after school every day, typically from 4-6 pm, this does unfortunately make play dates difficult, although one of DS friends mums is a bit more flexible on this but the dad is from a mixed background and they celebrate Christian festivals too. Birthday parties are difficult as we don't get invites to any from Muslim children except the family mentioned above and even if invites are issued the children do not attend, not even an rsvp saying sorry but can't. A couple of families do seem more liberal but not many.

Most of the Muslim families seem to enjoy the Christian festivals, they send Christmas cards, attend the nativity, harvest festival and other occasions. Some I have been told put up a Christmas tree and enjoy celebrating. Some of my Muslim friends say they have the odd glass of wine as well and one doesn't go to mosque regularly but tends to listen to the Koran in his car.

This is kind of a snapshot of my area. It is a very mixed sort of area, yes there are some issues but on the whole it's ok. What worries me is the kind of division that could be caused by extremism creeping in. Why is this particular conservative type of Islam gaining such a foothold? In my area it could cause the destruction of a community, turn people against each other. My feeling is that we should be trying for closer cohesion not division.

Good post Sports. It's a shame about play dates but somehow it seems the religion is discouraging integration with non- Moslems in quite a few cases even though they are the newcomers. 2 hours at the mosque is a lot each day?

Please don't mention ex-pats

The regressive left is quite a depressing concept.

Just as fascist. Do they not remember Russia.

Thank goodness that Nigel Farage does comment. I think there is more openness in the last few years.

Apparently 2 hours is the norm but only from a certain age, I don't know if the time is spent in continuous study or is more varied. Yes I'd like the possibility of more socialising for my child because I had those experiences and enjoyed a lot and feel a bit sad for my son not having that possibility. We are going to move soon, partly for room in the house, it's too small now and I want a bigger garden and for a more diverse school where those opportunities are likely to come.

I do worry about segregation happening almost as a kind of drift into it. The area I live in used to be more diverse 20 years ago, it was known for a lot of alternative people living there and a colourful eclectic vibe. Now it is becoming mono culture, the school is almost 90% one culture which I'm not sure is the best thing. I'm not sure if most Muslims would actively say they would like segregation, most I think or at least the ones I meet seem pretty interested n the rest of the world, they do participate. As I said I think it would be better to have more mixing, not less. I like going for coffee with Muslim friends, we don't generally talk religion though as they know I'm not particularly religious so it does tend to be mostly child focused etc and about amount of fly tipping and dog mess!

Fanakapan: I have Muslim friends who live on mainland Europe and have done so since fleeing war in the 1980s. They would not dream of covering and tell everyone that the veil is purely political and is adopted as much as an anti-Western symbol as a religious statement.

The veil and the scarf are purely political and are worn to convey support for a caliphate somewhere in the world, and - as you say - an anti-Western symbol. There are some wonderful, uplifting photos of women in Afghanistan from the early 60s on another thread. They all wore Western dress, no head coverings, and they all looked so carefree and happy and they mixed with men.

As someone pointed out to me a few months ago, it is actually the followers of Taliban and IS who are living the original teachings of the Koran as it was written.

I do find the regressive left idea worrying, ideas that harm people should always be challenged. Debate on now on BBC about the religious clothing issue right now, quite interesting ideas being put across.

KindDogsTail "one possible reason for some young people to be more religious may be that it is so liberal here now that there is almost a pressure to have no moral rules at all and it feels terrifying."

Yes, I too have thought along these lines as well. There is nothing to kick against. Many muslims could not easily live without the Koran, because as you know virtually every facet of life has an instruction about it in the Koran; I think they would become rudderless. I also think that the young people want a bit of (misplaced) glamour, and the quickest way to get this is to don some of the clothing of a put-upon ethnic or religious group; it gives you an opportunity to be rebellious.

It is a mark of separation, i.e. I am different from you and I want to be different.

What I find interesting is were women cover when they live in. Area were the majority of women don't dress that way

As your being attention seeking by definition if 99% of people are wearing a track suit and you choose to were a red dress with pink heels you are screaming look at me not matte want you say so if places were the majority population is not vailed you are drawing attention to your self and I thought the whole point was not to

Also the issue of being modest there you don't have to wear a black thing with your to be modest a baggy tracksuit or a maxi dress or even just a trouser suit will do the trick I really hate this trend of small girls being covered at school as if school uniform is somehow sexy

At my sons school some of the Asian girls were a balck thing over the top of there uniform witch is very modest

White shirt , tie , black trousers for both genders so why the school allows for and additional out fit is beyond me

Many of the students won't be allowed to go to prom witch is very sad not excatly sure what they feel the school will have the children up to

I also think it's become a get out clause for people who simply don't want to do things just lie people use health and safety

Oh can't come and have lunch at the pub but can happily sit in pizza express while eveyone drinks wine

Can't not wear a head scarf but can wear 6 inch heals and loads of make up and believe me I have seen young Muslim women dressed like this more make up than rupaul and heels higher than posh spice but apperntly it's the not covering the hair that's immodest

I've seen a few in skinny jeans and a tight top which are very figure revealing but mostly younger girls, I'm afraid the women who have kids mostly don't do that because the figure doesn't tend to quite the same post baby always. Some do wear quite a bit of make up, in fact one of my friends has a little make up business where she sells to friends in the community and it's really popular. I don't know what the Koran's stance on the use of cosmetics is, I know some imams have said perfume is forbidden but I know most of the Muslims I know, male and female wear it. I think it should be personal choice and there used to be disapproval of the use of cosmetics from some Christian sects too. I used to use spades of make up when I was a goth!

Yes, I too see young muslim girls who wear the large scarf (hijab) but they also wear tight jeans which show off their form and are hardly immodest. Their face has heavy makeup - esp. eye makeup and lipstick. What on earth are they trying to convey, because it cannot be modesty as they are attracting attention to themselves.