to think that T shouldn't be linked with LGB?

[lulucappuccino]

Why is transsexual, which I thought was all about gender, always mentioned along with lesbian, gay and bisexual, obviously types of sexuality?

You wouldn't say blonde, brunette, grey and men; or short, tall, medium and women.

AIBU to think these are separate things, or am I a dimwit?

Just marking my place because I have to go to work and find this debate interesting and thought provoking .

It will have caused problems Sniv, just most lesbians are too afraid to say it to women like yourself.

I've often wondered that, but assumed it was because they fight similar sorts of prejudice.

Interestingly, I just googled 'trans role models' and it came up with almost entirely glamorous transgender transwomen.

Yes.

Which I think says a lot about how society sexualises transwomen and expects them to 'pass', and how transmen are virtually invisible.

Swap transwomen for women and transmen for women, and you get the answer to the first observation:
Society sexualises women and expects them to 'pass'. Women are virtually invisible.

The glamorous transwomen are parodying the 'ideal' of glamorous, sexual women.
Because they're born and socialised men they demand acknowledgement and attention without question.

YANBU.

Swap transwomen for women and transmen for women, and you get the answer to the first observation:
Society sexualises women and expects them to 'pass'. Women are virtually invisible.

Yes, exactly this. The media celebrates sexualised trans women because it celebrates sexualised women. You don't get many women making it onto the cover of Vogue in jogging bottoms and no make up regardless of what sex they were born.

And lesbian spaces, after pressure, tend to welcome transmen. If the Transgender community was consistent, this would not happen.

You have men who transition in their 50's and 60's. Most of these Transgender people decide they are lesbians. Do you really think when they are in a lesbian group, that they stop behaving in a male like way? I can tell, you they do not.

Transgender also includes people who decide "to live as a man or woman" only socially; but at work and with family are their natal sex. So no, I do not appreciate that married man I know, "socialising as a lesbian" at lesbian groups.

It also does not matter if the majority of Transgender people do not agree with Trans activists. It is Trans activists who are bringing about legal and policy changes.

And name a woman who has featured on the front cover of vogue at Caitlyn Jenner's age. If Caitlyn Jenner was not Transgender, Caitlyn would be largely ignored by the media. Older women are virtually invisible in the media, unless they are totally exceptional.

(I had training on trans at work so was using the terminology I was taught there)

Just because your workplace commissioned some training doesn't mean the training was good, or accurate, or unbiased, or empirically correct.

I agree tbh but it's not something I've thought about too much. Peoples sexuality/gender isn't a big thing to me. People are people and I take them as they are.

I also may have misread the title as what has MR T got to do with lgb and am not slightly disappointed

Susan Sarandon was disgusting for showing her natural, beautiful, sexy cleavage yet Caitlin Jenner is totes sexy and brave. The emperor has no sex appeal

Vashty I don't want to be rude but if you've had trans training in the workplace then that will have followed a very specific narrative designed by transactivists, so I think it would be worth doing a lot more reading around the suBject, from both sides of the debate. I would agree with cleaty's definition. I also would like the say you're conflating sex and gender, they are not the same and that's a lot of the problem, when they are muddled. Transgenderism, as it is at present, is all about rigid gender stereotypes, which is part of its problem for me, I can't think anything that reinforces gender stereotypes is a good thing - particularly as the reality is that most people don't sit within those stereotypes. I'm wearing jeans, trainers, no make up or jewellery. Same as DH. Still different sexes.

Even wikipedia says a transexual is someone who has undergone full surgery. Most people who identify as transgender, never have genital surgery. Transexuals have been around ever since surgery was possible. Transgender encompasses so many new concepts and identities that it is a recent phenomena.

It will soon be the case legally that anyone who says they are the sex they are, has to be treated as that sex. There is a growing phenomena amongst transgender people of men with beards and wearing men's clothes, saying they "identify as women". Soon legally you will have to believe them.

I really don't think people understand the implications of the enormous increase in what transgender means and the legal implications.

I think some of my posts have been misunderstood! I'm a feminist and completely agree there are major issues with the way women are treated - definitely preaching to the converted there! And of course the training will be biased, all training is, my thoughts on trans integration are mainly based on the many, many trans people I know personally. I wouldn't speak so passionately about a group of people that I didn't actually know.

(And MN has emphatically given me an insight into the 'other side of the debate'. I just happen to disagree with some things.)

Do you agree that sex and gender are different? That biology is a fact and gender a feeling?

I know many Trans people too, including locally two Tran activists who are active on social media.

I know most people just want to get on with their life. But that is the same in any group of people. In any group it is the people who are active and lobbying who set the agenda.

Was that to me River? Yes, that's how I would define it too.
I just realised I should be clear that I absolutely don't support some of the vile things said on the internet by a small minority of trans people - comments that are homophobic or violent, or saying that lesbians who don't fancy transwomen are transphobic. I don't support that at all.
I've also heard transmen say that discussion can be dominated by transwomen, so I think there probably is an element of privilege that can come with being raised as a boy. That said - I've also met some extremely vulnerable transwomen who don't display anything like privilege and have had truly shitty lives.

Vashta that's the nub if it. And by silencing as terfs anyone who doesn't go along 100% with the loudest trans thinking they are further marginalising those very vulnerable people. For every gobby Paris there are countless Vickys

To answer the OP, you are definitely not being unreasonable. Think trans should no more be related to LGB than feminism, well especially Not feminism. Trans should be a separate lobby group not fighting to share the limited bench space of the above groups who after all make a far far greater proportion of the population than this tiny minority group which too often dilutes others' agendas especially in regard to women's rights

Completely misses the point but I do think single cubicles for all is definitely the way forward , everyone has to queue

Susan Sarandon was disgusting for showing her natural, beautiful, sexy cleavage yet Caitlin Jenner is totes sexy and brave When Sarandon was presenting a memorial where recently deceased people were being remembered. Some people said it was not appropriate. Not really comparable.

It's completely comparable. Sarandon was at an awards show and she was vilified for displaying saggy cleavage, not for dressing inappropriately. That vanity fair cover is bullshit- no female in her 60s would be photographed in that pose, in that outfit. Ever. 60+ women are supposed to be de sexualised whereas Jenner is apparently a youthful sex symbol suddenly - regardless of the fact that without the trowelled on slap and wig they would look rough as any 60+ person who has had a disturbing amount of facial cosmetic surgery.
The lauding of Jenner is bullshit and highlights how Jenner is NOT a woman because a woman would never get the deferential and respectful treatment Jenner gets.

Unicow did you ever visit Singapore? The MRT is the train system there!

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_Rapid_Transit_%28Singapore%29