to think that T shouldn't be linked with LGB?

[lulucappuccino]

Why is transsexual, which I thought was all about gender, always mentioned along with lesbian, gay and bisexual, obviously types of sexuality?

You wouldn't say blonde, brunette, grey and men; or short, tall, medium and women.

AIBU to think these are separate things, or am I a dimwit?

LGB spaces have never been safe spaces for women. It is why women only discos and groups were created.

World's slowest typer here, obviously the thread has moved on a bit

Right, so if trans people cannot be part of LGB to get away from the prejudice of outer society, and they cannot 'invade female safe spaces' or be accepted in 'normal society', where on earth are they meant to go? It seems like there are some groups of people out there who just want to make the trans community disappear, and will use any underhanded method they can. As for that 'petition' - that wasn't all the LGBT community was it - say's 'women and gay men'. I don't think it's a clear representation of the LBGT community's real feelings on the matter.

The situation is not dire. It actually makes me angry that no one seemed to care when in very recent memory LGB people were being treated terribly. So police in Manchester systematically raping lesbians, for which no one has ever been prosecuted. Gay men being set up by policemen in public toilets.

And those with the highest suicide rate are South Asian women. No one seems to give a damn about them.

The Trans community can and have set up their own groups. Just like other groups have to do.

cleaty - no, I was making a parallel, not suggesting LGB spaces were safe for women, right?

I don't think it should all be lumped together either.

I totally get that by coming together under one umbrella there was (historically) a louder and united 'voice', but we've moved on from that now as a society.

LGBT are all protected under equality law, and trans has a big enough voice & presence in its own right now, so I think the time is right to separate from LGB.

(My opinion only), I feel that the trans movement can somewhat hijack & undermine LGB.

T has a much bigger voice than lesbians.

Agreed
I guess it made sense at first but now it really doesn't.
Trans people face homophobia even if they are not homosexual - a trans lesbian (heterosexual male) experiences homophobia as a male who adopts feminine presentation. Likewise trans men of either sexual orientation experience homophobia as females who don't conform to femininity.
That's where the similarity ends though. Gender identity isn't sexuality - and while it may be no more of a 'choice' that sexual orientation it's not the same thing at all.
It's also frustrating that the lgbt movement is being dominated by heterosexual males who are arguing for the exclusion of gay men in particular as being less oppressed than trans women are.

I like what velour said: I used to be v. intolerant re: trans issues but have talked with someone who actually has many trans friends. I have none, I don't think I've even met anyone who's trans. I realised I was just seeing things too abstractly.
My passion for trans rights (alongside many other human rights movements) is fuelled by speaking to trans people. Certainly doesn't mean I think all trans people are right 100% of the time, but knowing actual trans people as opposed to idiots on the internet brings the issues home for me.

(Just to clarify, I didn't mean MN when I said 'idiots on the internet' , I meant the unpleasant trans rights activists, the ones who are also homophobic or want all cis people dead or whatever)

It's all a bit People's Front of Judea, isn't it?

And a sense of pushing people out - you don't belong here. Nasty.

It's not pushing people out though, they're different and have different agendas, needs & wants.

Trans is now a big enough movement on its own to splinter away.

Gender identity is completely different to sexuality. It is not the same thing.

Isn't the issue about Trans rights more about the fact that they are a few very very vocal people that have an agenda quite different from 99% of other Trans people that just want to live their life in peace?

I have no issue at all with these 99% and agree that they are very likely to be discriminated etc (And suffer from MH issues but I would like to know what part is linked with discrimination and what part is linked with the gender issue iyswim). In that way, I can see why it makes sense to group them with the LGB community, in that are facing similar problems.

I do have a issue with the 1% that is taking up all the space, makes everything about them. And I can see why the LGB community has an issue with them too. Sexuality and gender issues are two different things (even though you can have both a gender difference and a different sexuality) and putting the Trans agenda (ie gender issues) at the forefront all the time means that there is less space for the LGB issues (ie the sexuality issue)

The issue isn't about being Trans or whatever. It's about being egoistic and thinking that the whole world should be made to fit around them.

airside I would actually say it's a normal evolution. People/groups come together and then split up as their needs evolve and change.

I wonder why the Trans movement is so attached to be linked with the LBG movement?

It's all a bit People's Front of Judea, isn't it?

I do know what you mean. I have trans and gay people in my extended family, and I sometimes do think they could take a step back from being constantly massively offended by other gay/trans people who have said the "wrong" thing.

I realise I might be flamed for that, I know I don't know how it feels for them and they have a right to express themselves however they like... but I had to abandon my twitter account involving those people because it was getting so People's Front of Judea, endless angry rants back and forth between various LGB / T groups and individuals, that it was exhausting.

But, in that way, it's a bit like feminism too. I don't hold that just because you're a feminist you have to toe some official line, you have a right to work out what it means for you, and feminists can disagree. The same with sexuality and gender issues.

Everyone deserves a safe space where they are welcome. As the general population is still so very transphobic, that safe space being with other marginalized individuals makes sense. Hopefully we will get to a place where everyone is welcome regardless of who they identify as, or who they are attracted to. LGBT spaces as they are are still so controlled by white gay men, so even a safe space isn't truly safe, especially for bi or trans individuals.

There is a lot of venom, coming from the LGBT community, directed at bisexuals. Having experienced that myself, having been told I'm not really 'part' of it when I'm in a hetro relationship, receiving biphobia just as strongly from the gay community as the straight community, i have every sympathy for trans individuals having to endure similar, and I for one don't think it's fair in the slightest for anyone else to say where someone belongs.

And the trans rights movement started the force towards the Stonewall riots. That is why they are historically attached to each other, because everyone protested and rioted together. Since white gay men have received more and more acceptance, they have been in a better position, and everyone else has dropped into a back space.

Yesterday I was in a pub, openly kissing the woman I'm seeing at the moment (I'm a woman too). No one batted an eyelid, we made small talk with other people at the bar, all perfectly friendly. And no, not in London or a big city with much/any LGBT presence to speak of.
Would I feel as comfortable doing that if one of us were clearly trans? I'd have to be much braver, anyway.
Yes, lesbians are treated like shit, but I would say people are more comfortable by now with the idea of them, which in the US, France, Germany, UK etc is what we need to achieve for trans people, so they don't get abuse in public, in school etc and don't feel so alone they'll take drastic measures.

Everyone deserves a safe space where they are welcome.

Absolutely, 100%

However, as I see it anyway, the issue with lesbian/trans safe spaces is that they are not necessarily the same space.

Just as in 'wider' society, some lesbians, some feminists, some women believe that a safe space for women should not include people who were born with penises. So there's a massive schism right there.

I can understand some of what people are saying but I think it's important that this isn't just a case telling a small group who suffer discrimination from all directions to be quiet, stop making a fuss and go away.

Yanbu.

The trans agenda is erasing women, lesbian, bisexual, straight, all.

airside that's certainly not what I meant, and I don't think what the OP meant either.

Lots of different groups suffer discrimination, but the issues are different and so it might make more sense for them to campaign separately. Where there is possible conflict between people within the LGBT community, it seems especially silly that everyone is lumped together.

Obviously trans people can suffer homophobia too. But they could also suffer racism, disablism, sexism etc. It doesn't make sense to combine campaigns for those groups though, as they have different priorities.

Its ok...i didnt think you were having a pop robins

He thinks i make everything feminist (i probably do )

YANBU.

Looking at the comments for Germaine Greer, it is so ironic to read stuff from people who automatically shut down any critical discussion or exploration/inspection of their claims/thesis as 'transphobia', calling her an 'old' 'hag' and 'dinosaur'. I guess misogynistic males don't change their spots and of course they wouldn't want anything but an open door for something that mightn't hold any water if inspected to closely. It ain't GG who is the old dinosaur (even if shutting down of women (as in adult female humans) is under an oh so new guise).

If they tag the T onto LGB, I presume it is to give their claims the same validity.

My mother used to use the word queer. As in odd.