to think that T shouldn't be linked with LGB?

[lulucappuccino]

Why is transsexual, which I thought was all about gender, always mentioned along with lesbian, gay and bisexual, obviously types of sexuality?

You wouldn't say blonde, brunette, grey and men; or short, tall, medium and women.

AIBU to think these are separate things, or am I a dimwit?

[VinceNoirLovesHowardMoon]

And the trans rights movement started the force towards the Stonewall riots

I thought that was contested?

[Pangurban1]

Of course people can live their own lives the way they want. As long as their actions are self-regarding and and don't infringe adversely on others. When males start claiming they are actually women, the world MUST regard them as such and quite aggressively step on the toes and interfere with women's lives the way males always have that tics many women right off. And then they try to shut down any protest as 'transphobia'.

If you're trans , you're trans. Not a woman. Live it, own it. Dress how you want. I do. These are only cosmetic adornments and no sex is born with a skirt, heels or make-up on. Or plastic prosthetics. You don't have the right to expect or demand others must agree with you or measures to protect women's rights have to be amended to their detriment to give validity to oh so shaky claims. But of course, women's views aren't held important or given respect in these things that affect us and our lives. 'Old hag' and the aggressive shut-downs tell a lot of how women are viewed.

As most vocal and misogynistic trans seem to be males (wasn't it ever thus), I refer to this.

[OTheHugeManatee]

As an aside, anyone describing the LGB/T community as a 'safe space' hasn't spent any time on the scene

[FreshwaterSelkie]

YANBU, OP. The goals of T and L in particular are more often antithetical than they are unified. Take, for example, Michigan Women's Music Festival, which had been massively, massively important to many lesbians over the forty years that it was run. The organisers had respectfully asked that anyone born with a penis not attend, as it was a place for born women to connect with each other in a female only space. After a sustained campaign of infringement and harassment from transactivists, who camped outside the festival, occasionally entering to harrass and intimidate the women there, the organisers have shut it down, so there is now no MWMF for anyone, trans or otherwise, which the transactivists involved seem to regard as a triumph.

Then there's the cotton ceiling. A number of prominent transactivists have set up a series of events to help "educate" other trans women to "Break through the cotton ceiling" - ie, get otherwise reluctant lesbians to sleep with them.

Or then there's the amount of encouragement that young gender non conforming girls and women are now put under to transition, when in days gone by those girls and women would have grown up to be perfectly happy lesbians.

I can see why trans have followed the same path as gay & lesbian rights movements, but I think they are now very different.

[SallyDonovan]

I agree with you OP.

I identify as LGB. I have been involved in Queer politics on and off for 20 years and am increasingly of the opinion that the gay rights movement and trans rights movement have little in common. It makes very little sense to me to lump the two together.

I was on the LGB committee of my uni 20 years ago and successful opposed the introduction of the 'T' to our organisation. I wouldn't do that publicly now, however. I'd be vilified as a TERF.

[RiverTam]

Yanbu. I very much think that the transing of children in particular is about gay erasure. And given the hateful comments lesbians have been getting from certain vocal members of the trans community I can see why they in particular would want to keep their distance. Right now I can't imagine life for lesbian girls living under the LGBT banner is a barrel of laughs.

The current trans debate is about gender identity trumping all. LGB is about sexuality. The bathroom debate, for example, has nowt to do with LGB people as toilets have been segregated by sex not gender, so LGB people use the loo according to their biological sex. Of course, I'm sure that hasn't always been the safest thing for gay men in particular but then nobody seems to think that getting manhood to change its ways and accept feminine men is of any import, do they?

[Bluebolt]

There is also some conflict within the gay community who also belong to the drag/ transvestism, to the point that transvestite is now considered an offensive word. My uncle previously described himself as a "tranny" feels men like him our being airbrushed away. He wears high heels and mini skirts because he wants to and because he can. he has no doubts about his gender or his sexuality and despises the fact the assumption that high heel equate to female.

[livewyre]

YANBU.

It makes it difficult to not go along with the trans agenda, as by lumping them together, disagreeing with 'gender' makes you appear homophobic. I think it's perfectly possible to not buy into the gender thing without being homophobic.

[livewyre]

I very much think that the transing of children in particular is about gay erasure.

This^^ I thought which one is the butch one?" was a question that was becoming consigned to history. But now it's becoming expected that any women not 'feminine' enough is actually a man, and any man not 'masculine' enough should become a woman.

It's like the 20 century never happened.

[MrsBoDuke]

It's like the 20 century never happened.

Agree.

[cleaty]

I have lost count of the number of LGBT History events or displays I have seen, that feature exclusively Trans people. LGBT movement is largely becoming the T movement. And that is an issue.

[cleaty]

The Gay Rights movement existed before Stonewall riots. I hate the rewriting of history that erases everything that happened before that, in a variety of countries.

[VashtaNerada]

I have lost count of the number of LGBT History events or displays I have seen, that feature exclusively Trans people. I've genuinely seen more of the opposite (& I've been to a lot of LGBT history month events!). Generally trans people IME are ignored or there's just a token photo of Caitlin Sodding Jenner or Laverne Cox. Hardly ever see transmen at all.
I think the conversation on whether sexual orientation issues and gender identity issues should be tackled together or separately I s a perfectly reasonable one. What isn't acceptable are homophobic, biphobic or transphobic insults, which I've seen on both sides of the debate. It's horrible to witness because LGB&T people put up with all kinds of shit without turning against each other.

[OTheHugeManatee]

I'm friends with the editor of a well-known UK lesbian magazine. I can't remember the last time she posted something LGBT related on FB that was about L, or G, or B. It's actually a bit unsettling.

[noeffingidea]

idealweather think it's more (less) than 1% and 99% actually.
I also agree with the OP, though I'm not in the GLB community myself. I am aware of their concerns.

[iisme]

I saw a snippet on the BBC news where they were talking about the increase in children accessing gender clinics and how twice as many were girls. The director said that this was a social issue - where before they would just have been tomboys now society is changing so that they are labelled trans. But he said that as if this was totally a positive thing with no downsides. No discussion about how many women who had been tomboys as girls (lots of us) actually wished they had had surgery and undergone sterilisation as young people and we're now living as men, and how many had gone on to grow out of that phase and become contented women. It made me so cross.

[TippyTappyLappyToppy]

I think it's just about being non-hetero non-mainstream, but you make a good point and I agree with you.

[GooseberryRoolz]

YANBU

[Pangurban1]

Did anyone see C4 news yesterday and the North Carolina bathroom bill. It was described as an 'anti-gay' law. I wonder if this is also to confuse the issue. It didn't seem to have anything to do with sexuality.

It showed a trans person effusively saying they wanted to be safe. So safety seemed to be the crux of the issue with transpeople going into men's toilets. If people with penises are regarded as a danger by transpeople, why do they think they are entitled to introduce their penises into women's toilets irrespective of what gender the person with the penis says they are. Or that women do not have an equal right to be safe.

In fact one could speculate that some older or impotent men with penises could pose less of a potential risk in a women's bathroom than say someone like 'Tara Hudson' who is a large framed transperson who advertised a '7 inch surprise' penis they use for sex work and have been proven to be violent as they have been incarcerated for violence. Or transpeople who commit violent or sexual offenders just like all other penile offenders. So it could be argued that some non transpeople with penises could pose less of a risk to women's safety than transpeople with penises.

Are they maintaining a trans person with a penis as being less potentially dangerous than other people with penises? Where is the proof of this? Of course that is not to say that all transpeople with penises are dangerous. Just as it would be wrong to claim all other people with penises are a danger. If that is the case, then transpeople in a men's bathroom are in no more danger than women would be with anyone (including transpeople) with penises accessing their bathrooms. However, they are claiming that it dangerous in men's bathrooms and by extension people with penises are a danger (which ironically includes themselves). Of course, the possible answer is that as people with penises they don't give a flying fig about women's rights or safety.

Using the transperson's argument, a woman (adult female human) would have more right to say they want to be safe from the introduction from ANY person with a penis into their space. Who deems only people with penises who have gender dysphoria are in any way safer than other people with penises and can therefore access spaces reserved for adult human females. Or how can they prove they are less of a potential danger, if danger is the issue?

For what it's worth, I think single toilet cubicles are the way to go. Ones that open out onto a corridor and then there is no men or women's.

That is probably the most I've ever written about penises. Excuse rambling.

[VashtaNerada]

This thread is wandering a bit now but FWIW I agree that single cubicles is the best way to go. I think trans people and toilets isn't the issue tbh because trans people have been using the toilets of their choosing for decades without it really being a problem. The worry is more about violent men trying to access spaces where women are vulnerable, but as you say if we move more towards single cubicles it will be better for everyone. Plus lots of trans people are terrified of getting abuse for using public toilets so many people just don't use them, which I think is really sad.

[jayho]

I think it's a question of support and the lack of available access to support for people.

My daughter identified as bi-sexual as a pre-teen and teen before gaining the confidence and comfort through support from LGBT groups to identify as female. She then identified as a lesbian female and so valued the continuing support from the LGBT community.

To my mind it's the 'non-linear' nature of many of the community's life paths that join them together. To me, again, any community that can offer support to people, particularly young people, while they tread complicated paths through their identity and relationships is to be welcomed. I can see the logic of saying that the LGB bit is about sexuality and the T bit is about gender but think the issues are more complex and intertwined that might appear on first look.

[TiggyD]

A lot of people agree that GBL shouldn't be linked with T. More feel it should. There's many colours in the rainbow, different but side by side, and all working together to make something lovely.

but indigo can fuck off.#notarealcolour

[jayho]

Oh, and from a personal perspective, I've never liked the 'trendiness' of transgender. I've seen at first hand the agonising journey a person can take to resolution, trying to fit societal stereotypes and suffering.

I've collected my daughter from mental health facilities on too many occasions to take the issue lightly. watching someone essentially battle them selves in an effort to 'fit in' is heartbreaking.

The support she's received from the LGBT community is amazing and I'd be saddened were it withdrawn on polemical grounds.

[TiggyD]

Yanbu trans is a lifestyle choice... That's what they used to say about LGB too.