to think that T shouldn't be linked with LGB?

[lulucappuccino]

Why is transsexual, which I thought was all about gender, always mentioned along with lesbian, gay and bisexual, obviously types of sexuality?

You wouldn't say blonde, brunette, grey and men; or short, tall, medium and women.

AIBU to think these are separate things, or am I a dimwit?

[RobinsAreTerritorialFuckers]

I know that, acasual. But there's no special reason why you should be the only person on the thread who gets to mind other people's business, is there?

You did come across as very combative to her. And she might be dealing with quite difficult issues, surely?

[sparechange]

I agree with you, and it was a lesbian friend who pointed out to me how illogical it is, and how many parts of the LGB community don't like it

[RufusTheReindeer]

Thats what i was saying robins i said you have got rid of an entire sex with that wereas axexual etc can be either sex

He is young still bless him

vashta

That was his point that i agreed with, to include everyone you would need the whole alaphabet

[LonnyVonnyWilsonFrickett]

Is that right Robins? It's not been my experience amongst my gay friends, but I'm happy to stand corrected.

[RobinsAreTerritorialFuckers]

Oh, not having a go at him rufus! Just thinking about the absurdities.

lonny - yes. 'Queer' originated as a derogatory term for gay men. To an extent it has been 'reclaimed', but a lot of people still use it as a slur, so it can be upsetting.

[RobinsAreTerritorialFuckers]

• sorry, that should be, queer as a term describing sexuality originated as a derogatory term for gay men. Obviously, the word was in use before - but given it means peculiar, you can see why it's not exactly neutral!

[Seeyounearertime]

Fromn my own limited perspective i thought that LGBTQ, and any other permutation therein, is an organisation or movement fighting for equality. Theyre all fighting so they're all part of the same umbrella.
Together they're a bigger force than if they were seperate. Iyswim.

[acasualobserver]

You did come across as very combative to her.
In your opinion. I disagree.

And she might be dealing with quite difficult issues, surely?
If true, she could state this on her own behalf, surely?

[Sandsnake]

What's always struck me is that LGBT to me is something that has felt a little bit politically incorrect (for want of a better term), as it smacks of lumping people together purely on the basis of being different from the 'norm'. Likewise with the bizarre sounding alternative version - 'QUILTBAG', which I think is Queer, Undecided, Intersex, Lesbian, Transexual, Bisexual, Asexual and Gay.

[icanteven]

acasual I should have thought that if people just "minded their own business" when they saw other people who are not of their skin colour, sex, gender, sexuality, race, nationality or religion we would probably be living in the dark ages. Should you really never think/ask about issues faced by/protect Zoroastrians because you are not yourself a Zoroastrian (for example)?

[lorelei9here]

I agree with you and have gay friends who dislike it
I dislike all these terms though, speaking as someone classified as BME. But that's a whole other thread.

[RhombusRiley]

I always wondered about this too.

There is now also QUILTBAG – Queer/Questioning, Undecided, Intersex, Lesbian, Trans, Bisexual, Asexual, Gay. Basically from that POV it's about anyone who is in a minority in a sex/gender-related way. And I suppose it may be that they would be lumped together by others/straight or non-quiltbag people, so there's a strength in unity IYSWIM.

[QueenofallIsee]

There was actually a petition started by a group of G & L folks to called 'drop the T'. I think in response to the domination of Trans issues when LGBT issues are being discussed as well as on the basis that the Trans issues are markedly different.

The petition was pulled for Trans phobia. I have no wish to discriminate, I support fighting for equal rights. That said the Trans movement seems to be looking for superior rights and is simultaneously diminishing my own so I am struggling with it.

[RhombusRiley]

oops quiltbag x-post.

[acasualobserver]

Should you really never think/ask about issues faced by/protect Zoroastrians because you are not yourself a Zoroastrian (for example)?

No, of course not. But on Zoroastrian issues I am more inclined to bow to your view if you are, indeed, a Zoroastrian.

[Seeyounearertime]

I dot think it's 'lumping people together purely on the basis of being different from the norm'

I think it's more like people coming together as they share a similar goal.
Let's face it, a lesbian woman who many would class as "Butch" would likely have similar experience with prejudice as a transman.
Similarly a gay man ho expresses himself in an effeminate manner will likely face the same sort of issues as hetero man who's transitioning.

They may be different, sexuality and gender, but I'd imagine there re very many parallels that the people face.

[SleepyBoBo]

1. The LGBT community is more than about the sex you're having, It's meant to be a 'place' where all those that have been treated like the freaks and 'queers' of society can find a safe-haven.
   

1. Some of the trans community do struggle with sexuality. Some go from being seen in straight relationships to gay ones (e.g husband and wife to wife and wife), some find their sexual prefrences changing as they discover more of the real them.
   

So the basics of it may be 'one about sex, one about gender', but it does overlap. However, I get an underlying 'goadyness' about this thread - just because you don't 'understand' something about it OP, doesn't mean there isn't a reason.

[cleaty]

It makes no sense, and actually the Beaumont Society who are an old organisation set up to support transexuals, used to say publicly that they were not part of LGB.

Queer is a term that was an insult, and then adopted by mainly middle and upper class gay white men as a term. It is still hated as a term by most middle aged and older LGB people.

I agree that the new long acronyms basically lumps everyone in deemed "abnormal". This is not what the LGB movement was originally about.

[OTheHugeManatee]

YANBU OP. There are muttering a of discontent to this effect among the LGB community too - see this petition for example.

[cleaty]

If you are LGB and Trans, then you are already included. The OP is not being goady. This is a BIG issue in LGB circles. And more and more are saying publically, that it should be LGB.

Straight women who wear men's clothes also get prejudice directed towards them. Doesn't mean they should be included in LGB.

[velourvoyageur]

I am B and do subscribe to the MN attitude re: trans issues (well, mostly..don't like it when it strays over into frank bullying). But people identifying as trans DO need access to extra help (look at the MH stats for one) and, sadly, they would get less exposure as just 'T' than if they pool resources with other marginalised groups as they do now.
It's not at all an ideal situation, of course not. The politics of representation always suffer from insufficient distribution of available resources. I don't want LGBT to be a thing, I don't even want LGB to be a thing, unless maybe you change it to LGBS(traight) as a helpful retro reminder of what sexualities we have in this world I think we will still need LGBT for a long time after my lifetime anyway, more's the pity.
I don't like the idea of promoting or accepting unquestioned recognition of gender as a legitimate and fair way of classifying identity, at all, but I also obviously hate the idea of trans-related suicides and hate crimes happening because we're too busy squabbling. Even if the squabbling needs to happen. But if it's happening while people are dying unnecessarily (even while still under the umbrella of LGBT and getting more help than they would than if on their own), sorry, I'll be calling it squabbling and not debate. Deal with the urgent issues first and save the nitpicking theory for a bit later when people aren't dying, perhaps. Priorities.

[cleaty]

"The LGBT community is more than about the sex you're having, It's meant to be a 'place' where all those that have been treated like the freaks and 'queers' of society can find a safe-haven."

That is so so wrong. Are you younger? Because the LGB community was actually about fighting for very basic civil rights. There are plenty of LGB people in very recent history who were not allowed to visit their dying partner in hospital, who were sacked from jobs for being in same sex relationships, and who were jailed for sex with a same sex partner. This was not about finding a "safe haven", it was about making wider society a safer place to live.

[WhatWouldLeslieKnopeDo]

YANBU.

I was thinking this only yesterday and almost started a thread about it.

I received an email from All Out asking for donations. I have signed some petitions and donated to a couple of their campaigns. But I am put off from giving a general donation as I am not entirely convinced about some of the trans issues. If they were only campaigning on homophobia then I would have definitely donated. So often the two are lumped together when actually they are quite different.

To be absolutely clear, I do not think anyone should ever be subject to discrimination. I believe everyone should be treated with dignity and respect, including trans people. But trans rights is a more complex situation than gay rights, and I would want to think about each campaign separately.

[RobinsAreTerritorialFuckers]

I think it can be both, can't it, cleaty?

I agree with you that, originally, LGB organisations (eg. Stonewall) were about making wider society safer.

But I think there's a fairly long history of people organising LGB groups partly so that people could come together somewhere safe? A bit like woman-only spaces, which are often spaces where women campaign for equal rights, but which also let women just feel safe to talk?

[velourvoyageur]

And just to say.....I used to be v. intolerant re: trans issues but have talked with someone who actually has many trans friends. I have none, I don't think I've even met anyone who's trans. I realised I was just seeing things too abstractly. There are many points I've not budged on, but did used to not at all understand why it was LGBT....when you realise how dire the situation is, however, it all shifts into perspective.