Is having overweight kids child abuse?

[Mummyme1987]

A friend posted on Fb that parents with fat kids are child abusers. Except for kids with medical problems. It started with comments on how it's awful that there's a generous fit section in clothes shops. I'm shocked that people think this. I think the majority of parents don't just feed their kids crap, and some kids are bigger than others, and unless it is a very extreme case it's not child abuse. Thoughts?

Katenka
By following the procedure that schools and SS do now?

Measuring/weighing children twice at primary school (if the parents agree) and/or ad hoc referrals through safeguarding do not offer a framework for routinely screening families of obese children for potential abuse. A system that tried to do that would be fraught with difficulties.

Natsku
Was looking up obesity rates in my country and found this article who.int/features/2015/finland-health-in-all-policies/en/ some very good policies here like every child gets a yearly check up from the school nurse which includes weighing and measuring, every child eats free school dinners that have to be healthy and balanced (including nursery children, there's no option for packed lunches anywhere) and every school has to teach health, nutrition and fitness.

What a fantastic blueprint for reducing childhood obesity. So in that Finnish municipality, they halved the rate of overweight and obese five year olds over a six year period, and have tackled childhood obesity by using an integrated population level approach, focusing on schools, chldren and parents - they seem to have thought of everything. They are effectively changing cultural norms and making it much easier for children and families to live healthier lifestyles.

shebird
If I look back to when I was growing up we played out all day and only came indoors to eat or if the weather was really bad.

Common practice back in the day, and ironically a form of 'benign neglect' parenting.

walking everywhere within reason and not buying junk are simple non expensive life changes that anyone can manage.

Not sure if you're talking about adults and/or children. I don't know any teenagers who can resist junk food when out and about, regardless of how healthy their overall diet is.

I do wish schools weren't so ridiculous when it comes to packed lunches. My friends daughter got a carton of milk and a bottle of sparkling water taken from her because they're 'unhealthy'. I'm not sure what guidance they're going off anymore but schools seemed misinformed. Especially when those on school dinners are having stodgy sponge cake and chips

Why on God's earth would anybody choose to have arms and legs that size?
Her arms are the size of most people's torsos.
Not sexy except to the odd weirdo maybe

For the first time they managed something like that fascicle in the 70s there was the North Karelia Project in an area that had the highest rates of death from heart attack in the world and reduced that rate drastically with an integrated approach too. Which just goes to show it is entirely possible to reduce the obesity crisis, but it takes effort from everyone, not just the parents but the schools, doctors, the Government, the media etc.

It's sad to say but I don't think the obesity crisis is something we are going to solve.

I had to do an assignment at uni in regards to a public health issue and I chose obesity. So much research went into it and it was both sobering and scary. I've read multiple strategies, the health models and the psychology behind each method implemented, the statistics year on year nationally and internationally and I just don't know what else can be done without people as individuals stepping up more. I think we now have an added challenge than before with the rise of Health At Every Size, screams of fat shaming (unwarranted), obese role models and the like. Theres now a constant undercurrent of forced acceptance and not wanting to offend.

I just found a Health at Every Size health care model and I grimaced. It was basically telling us to ignore people's size and instead focus on the health of the individuals. But surely that's counter productive? Because size whether people like it or not is 1. An indicator of health, 2. The result of a lifestyle good or bad and 3. An indicator of future health problems. It's like asking people to ignore the fact people smoke and drink.

FIRSTLY

"30 years ago kids were rarely fat. These days, lots are.

So: do we think loads of individual parents have suddenly become really abusive, or that the whole culture has changed in ways which individuals can't always be expected to resist?"

Re-posting - this was what I had in mind.

Greed is part of human nature. Some people are more prone to it than others; most people learn to resist it, as they resist other impulses with bad results. Some resist intermittently or not very successfully.

Has human nature changed? Are people greedier? Within a generation?

Is that really what you all think?

I don't. I (and many experts) think that society has changed in ways that interact with the long term human capacity for greed, with very dangerous results.

SECONDLY

"health at every size" is NOT a movement which promotes being fat. It is a movement which promotes healthy lifestyles no matter what size you happen to be. This is good because many overweight people are ashamed to exercise, or think there is no point eating vegetables "until they are slim". Which may never happen. This is a movement which takes the shame away and allows them to practise basic self care which many slim people do unthinkingly: balanced diet, regular exercise, other healthful habits and activities.

THIRDLY

Fascinating how invested so many of you are in being angry at people for being fat. So much time has been spent so indignantly on this thread. Why? Worra (for instance), what do you get out of this? I won't bother now pointing out how much of what you write is utter, utter nonsense, because you won't listen. But I am interested in listening if you try to tell me why it is so important to you to be so loud, so right, and so judgemental on this issue.

" It was basically telling us to ignore people's size and instead focus on the health of the individuals."

Because there is something you can do about this. Size is not as controllable as the diet industry would have you believe.

" But surely that's counter productive?"

What? focusing on individual patients' health on a case by case basis? Isn't that basically the definition of good health care?

" Because size whether people like it or not is 1. An indicator of health"

no it isn't

", 2. The result of a lifestyle good or bad"

no it isn't

" and 3. An indicator of future health problems"

no, it isn't.

". It's like asking people to ignore the fact people smoke and drink."

No, it isn't. smoking and drinking to excess are directly risky behaviours. Being overweight is correlated with low exercise levels and poor diet. Correcting these will and can do good to a person withotu necessarily affecting their weight.

" I had to do an assignment at uni in regards to a public health issue and I chose obesity. "

why?

Sorry but you're talking crap and it's no wonder we are succumbing to obesity.

Why not? It's a very important issue in public health.

www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/09/why-it-was-easier-to-be-skinny-in-the-1980s/407974/

"They found a very surprising correlation: A given person, in 2006, eating the same amount of calories, taking in the same quantities of macronutrients like protein and fat, and exercising the same amount as a person of the same age did in 1988 would have a BMI that was about 2.3 points higher. In other words, people today are about 10 percent heavier than people were in the 1980s, even if they follow the exact same diet and exercise plans."

No, you are talking crap and your attitude is directly contributing to the rise in obesity

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/11086483/Fat-shaming-makes-people-eat-more-rather-than-less.html

"Fat shaming 'makes people eat more rather than less'"

"But, contrary to a belief that calling people fat will motivate them to lose weight, so-called “fat shaming” can lead to overweight people eating more."

I am not saying that it's great if everyone is fat. I am saying that people like you, Grey, are utterly wrong headed about what to do about it.
Your "common sense" (I suppose you think it is) is a large part of what has got us all into this mess.

If you think it's awful imagine how much more awful it is if you are the fat person. (I am guessing you aren't)

"Why not? It's a very important issue in public health."

I am just extending the question that I asked Worra to you: why be so passionately indignant about this? Enough to argue this long on a message board?

You are totally wrong, by the way.

You haven't read the thread properly have you? I was the one who said studies show fat shaming doesn't work and has negative effects so the people doing it are just arse holes.

It's quite telling how you think a thread discussing obesity is automatically fat shaming though - thank you for proving the point I made earlier.

Actually I was obese. Then overweight and now I'm JUST in the normal range but not by much. So that dig doesn't quite work.

I wish you had posted earlier as I'd have loved to engage in some of your twisted logic but unfortunately I have a 5.30 start.

"http://time.com/2809007/eat-less-exercise-more-isnt-the-answer-for-weight-loss/"

"“The uncomfortable fact is that an exceedingly small number of people can lose a substantial amount of weight and keep it off following that advice.”
Blaming excess weight on people simply not changing their eating habits goes back thousands of years. Sloth and gluttony are two of the seven deadly sins, after all. But Ludwig and Dr. Mark L. Friedman of the Nutrition Science Initiative in San Diego, argue that this mindset disregards decades of research on the biological factors that control body weight. And they are not just talking about the role genetics play. They say we should stop viewing weight as something separate from other biological functions—like hormones and hunger and the effects of what foods we eat, not just how much of them."

The advice that has been streaming out of "experts" for decades is so dangerously wrong.

• low fat makes you fat
• dieting in general makes you fat in the medium and long term
• fat shaming makes people fat

nonsense "common sense" like this are what people keep returning to on threads like this and they need to wake up, go away, and read something current about this whole issue.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying "everything is fine". I am saying "will idiots who know nothing please shut up and stop making it worse"

Who's arguing? It's a debate. That's what message boards are for. Just because it's a topic you take offense at doesn't mean it's not worth having. Should we shut down narrative on obesity? Because that'll work won't it

Anyway I'm sure there'll be some interesting discussion to come back to tomorrow. Night!

Looks like its not just men judging women for their fuckability going by Ismells post.

Proves the point i made earlier too.

Maybe ONE ONE of the reasons ppl are are scared to excersise is because they know damn well that people will be thinking what Ismell is

And there are plus size male models on the block now too.

Its going to be very very interesting to see if the attitudes towards them will be the same.

Well, this thread has gone weird.

What do you want people to say? It's all society's fault, there's nothing the individual can do to make sure they, as an individual, stay/become fit and healthy? Fine. Take that attitude if you wish. I won't be.

No Grey, I haven't read the whole thread (which is incredibly long and probably a lot of it is very boring, as these things usually go) so sorry I missed where you pointed out that fat-shaming is counter-productive. I didn't realise you knew that as the stuff that you are writing about "health at every size" is so damaging and wrong.

The "mile a day" thing sounds like a great idea if it is positioned as a completely natural, neutral part of the school day. Everyone does it, no one is timed, or weighed afterwards, or wears silly revealing clothes to do it. It's just a given part of the school day that as a group, as a community, everyone gets fresh air once a day, without buying anything, without putting anything on facebook, without logging anything, without competing in any way. That sounds healthy, plain and simple.

But it's the throwaway lines that are killer. Are there teachers who say things to a slightly reluctant heavier child like "come on Sam / Sandra, you need it more than any of us ha ha ha ha" or more likely and just as damaging "not that you need to, Tony / Tamsin!" (because that child is very slim). All these things sink in.

I was a very active child, and slim (though short and stocky) until I got the message that exercise was for sexy, skinny people in glossy spandex and hairspray and things with really high cut legs (it was the 80s). It felt wrong and uppity to think I could enjoy moving around, once I realised with shame I was not like them. "Exercise" as a Thing is part of the problem.

Welcome to the thread! Where have you been? I needed you!

How Bad i agree about the mile a day Ive been saying the same on this thread. I used to be obese Ive lost 10 stone but it hasnt made me cocky Its made me empathetic.

AyeAmarok - you don't understand, you are mixing up two entirely different kinds of analysis in your post.

" It's all society's fault,"

Well I would say a more nuanced thing like: society is structured not to support healthy lifestyles and one of the results of this is an increasing tendency towards overweight. But yes, society has a lot to do with it, or, let's be frank, unfettered capitalism.

"there's nothing the individual can do to make sure they, as an individual, stay/become fit and healthy?"

No, this is where you are confused: the individual can resist society. A given individual can pack a salad instead of eating in the canteen; an individual can stand firm about taking a lunch break at work instead of accepting the pressure to work through and buying crap from a vending machine later; an individual can go to bed an hour earlier than everyone else and wake up with more energy, and less desire for cheap carbs as a result; an individual can ride a bike, although the city makes it feel more comfortable and safer to drive a car. All of these things are possible to an individual; but they don't solve the fact that every individual who bothers will be an exception.

There is no point in talking about what individuals can do because what is needed, when we are talking on a macro level about large numbers of people, is societal change.

Individual advice is what you give a friend who says "what am I going to do? Nothing I wore last year fits me any more." That's what you say to a person who is living within society.

This isn't about individuals. It's about society.

And when we are talking about young people - children and teenagers - we have to accept responsibility as a society for providing them with an environment in which they can thrive, instead of just accepting that we'll create a generally shit world for the sake of profit, and then expecting parents to sweat blood creating some weird private reinforced bubble that protects their offspring, and only their offspring, from the shit, and then freaking out and screaming because 85% of them just do not have the personal resources to do so, even if they lie awake at night worrying about the things they can't change for their children

HowBad in my slimming world group i have met two women who both start work at 7 in the morning and are so rushed off their feet they dont get to eat until 5pm if they get to eat at all so i suspect their bodies are going into starvation mode and hanging onto what they do eat................they are BOTH NHS theatre nurses.

An ex of mine delivered and picked up cars at a car rental firm for a living His boss constantly moaned when ever my ex expected to get time to eat lunch and told him to eat it on the go while driving.

Seriously overweight is neglect however all children are different. DD is 6 and petite and her friend is much chubbier however does more exercise and eats much less (both have a good balanced diet)