To want to staple things to this woman's head??

[picklypopcorn]

I just took on a new mentoree at work and she's known for being a "tricky customer"... anyway, thinks I, I shall tame the wild beast and emerge victorious....

Today was our first day working together. It has been exactly 7 minutes since she sat herself down next to me and already I fear I'm way over my head.

This is a transcript of our exact conversation this morning (for context, I am about 7 stone overweight and currently on weightwatchers, which she doesnt know about. She is a healthy weight).

Her: Are you on a diet?

Me: Huh?

Her: Are you on a diet? It's just I have cake and crisps all day, I'm a total addict!

she moves the mountain of cake and crisps to her side of the desk

Me: Oh that's fine don't worry I'll cope!

Her: Do you go to the gym? Do you do any exercise at all?

Me: Well no, but I have dogs so I'm out with them a lot

Her: Oh! Good well that's something then. You should join the gym it's good for you

Me:.... gobsmacked

(here comes the kicker)

Her: I think if i was your size though I'd feel a bit self conscious about gyms.

IWILLENDYOU.

WRAAAATH!!!!

....

I quietly got up and went to the loo.... where I still am.

Bollocks.

Agree with Sprink. This is not normal for a French workplace at all even though they are judgemental bastards about weight-. They tend to be more formal and polite than Brits at work.

I once worked in France with 2 people who had been friends at school then worked in the same office for 20 years Despite this and the fact that they were both of equal seniority at work, they always vouvoyed and called each other "Monsieur" and "Madame".

I think you must have a specimen who has been exiled for failure to meet the exacting standards of French etiquette, OP

OMG, Pickly, you are amazing. You have been amazing since the start of this thread, but your post starting:

"Email sent to HR, the HR guy rang me straight away with an informal (he's also on his lunch break) "what's occurring?".. I've explained the situation to him and although he cant tell me what the previous complaints were for he said they were "along similar lines"...."

Just puts you in another bracket. You are mature beyond your years (patronising, much!), you are sensitive, you are honest. You identify the issue and you have the courage to "name" it and state what is wanted and move on.

Will you be my line manager, please?

Expect to be head-hunted/moved up the ranks very quickly!!!!

I said: "I suggest you learn very quickly how to control yourself and exercise your verbal filter. If you EVER speak to me like this again I'll have your job vacancy filled before you get up out of your chair. Consider this fair warning, I'm happy to now move forward and forget we ever needed to have this conversation. ok?" - This bit I said more clearly, I'd got my nerve by now and she was on the back foot.

You threatened to sack her and then let HR know after the event?!

Bloody hell, I don't think that sheltered countryside upbringing is cramping your style as much as you think it is.

He (informally) told me to watch my back and if anything else happens, to call him immediately. He joked he fully expects to have an email in the next couple of weeks from someone else on the team complaining about the amount of blood on the carpet...

Listen to him. He's on your side trying to help you to avoid getting in trouble yourself.

He (informally) told me to watch my back and if anything else happens, to call him immediately. He joked he fully expects to have an email in the next couple of weeks from someone else on the team complaining about the amount of blood on the carpet...

Listen to him. He's on your side trying to help you to avoid getting in trouble yourself.

You may find she becomes focussed and full of tricks, true, but he person is just showing his fear here. You would think HR would be experts and aware of both the danger of bad apples,and how to deal with them, but they can also be very quick to put their head in the sand and hope someone else is proactive.

The good thing is that she will be in a bind. Does she continue her tactics and behaviour knowing you will call her out and make her vulnerable, or does she finally give up. In fact, I suspect she is partly seeking clear guidance and strong management. I would suggest you view it this way anyway and maintain clear communication about what you expect in terms of behaviour. You may find she is pleased with this and responds well if you hold good intention in your head. Be wary of how she treats people she sees as junior s ..eg newer, and make sure she doesn't have opportunities to be the only source of information for someone else. I always found the phrase 'I'm going to have to say something' either in my head or out loud was useful when you know there is an issue you have to deal with.

More 'well done's from me.

You threatened to sack her and then let HR know after the event?!

It is very wrong of her to comment about your weight, and you know your workplace best, but in many workplaces her level of rudeness would not be a concern for HR. It would reflect badly on her, yes, but it wouldn't put you in the best light either that you threatened to fire her over this, when you have no authority to fire anyone, let alone to fire them for being rude about personal issues.

Lucky the HR guy is your friend and he's on your side, but I would be a bit careful before taking advice from a thread like this, when it comes to dealing with workplace issues and HR. On MN people have a very rosy view about the workplace. I often see advice on here that makes me wonder where people work, because I've never worked anywhere that HR would be happy to hear that I've pulled up a junior colleague and threatened her job for telling me I'm fat.

At the end of the day we are strangers on the internet, and although MN is full of wisdom I would be very cautious in gaining confidence to do something that affects your career based on everyone here cheering you on and saying how much they admire you and how you've done the right thing. We don't know your workplace. We don't know your HR priorities, and how much value they attach to this new colleague or how much they value you.

In the world beyond mumsnet there is a risk that HR might think she's brilliant and not care whether she's rude. You have said she is bright, a quick learner, and brings language skills that are highly needed. Maybe that's the most important thing as far as HR is concerned. Not saying this is the case. Just advising caution. You don't know whether the posters on here have HR or managerial experience, so be very careful before you rush in full of confidence based on their advice.

In some workplaces rude people do rise to the top even though on MN everyone would say how unreasonable that is. On MN people seem to believe that only nice people get ahead at work, while the unreasonable ones get fired. People here also seem to believe that all bosses and HR types are fair and reasonable and will always support you if YANBU. Ha.

Every country has their dicks, I wonder if she's related to my friend's husband. After our last visit with them my husband asked me if rude personal questions was a French thing. I said no, he's just a rude little jerk of a French man.

Good luck taming her!

Mmm.. Agree with above in terms of caution, but in this case the OP is a boss, and staff members behaviour is line-crossing already. Operational conversations don't have to always be HR sanctioned. Morally, she stepped outside policy so it's she that took this outside, not the op.

If the woman fights, the maximum complaint she has at the moment is that the meeting you had was effectively a disciplinary and the OP didn't follow procedure. Your defence is to say that you dont agree, you had a spontaneous informal one-to-one in which some behavioural issues were raised. These were that many of her initial comments about weight, diet and exercising breach the harassment and bullying policy, and were showing deliberate disrespect to managerial staff, which could also be considered insubordination. You believe that a request to stop this behaviour is a reasonable request by management.

In fact I think your swift move to 'let's develop you' will help a great deal to move her away from conflict .

In many ways this is the 'storming' part of team development in which subtle boundaries and expectations are worked out.

You can Go with that line and hold the line. I have been in major dysfunctional arsings about, and just been patient that it is part of a process of learning to work together.

If you say to HR 'I'd like to get this to work, can you help' they probably will come in on your side.

OP, this woman is a complete moron. I am surprised how she has survived in life until now.

Just weighing in with "you're awesome". Because you are.

And place marking. Because I don't think this is the last we've seen of Madame Agrafe.

OP, I feel sorry for you that you got mixed up in this mess. You were handed the poisoned chalice. Other colleagues have failed to manage this rude colleague, now it's been handed to you. I wouldn't be trying to tame her or teach her good British manners if I were you, I'd be trying to emerge from this without getting mixed up in yet another drama that has to involve more reports to HR.

I don't know about your workplace, but most HR people hate drama and fights at work above all else. Everybody in the fight looks bad, even though you're not the one who started it and it's totally not your fault. They don't care who's right and who's wrong, they just don't want you to be in fights with each other. And 'she called me fat and said I should go to the gym' is just the worst thing to have to tell HR. No matter how you phrase it, it lacks gravitas. Sorry.

The only cause for hope in your case is that the HR guy is your friend and he's got your back. But it's not good that he's expecting a fight to erupt again in your team. Like gooseberry said, work with him, don't let the rude colleague wind you up. Let that be an end to it. Let her fall on her own sword, if she's that rude she'll manage to get herself in trouble without your involvement, and it won't rub off on you.

How rude

Well done picklypopcorn [pompoms]

don't forget to save those e-mail apologies

I think you're fab OP and rude woman is lucky to have you as a mentor. I too am on a journey of where I can trying to learn to stand up for myself. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't but my usual stammering mess is just exhausting so I want to try to change...

It looks like she's shown up to teach you to stand up for yourself and you've shown up to teach her how to behave. These are both skills we need to be respected and become well rounded adults. I wish I'd been as awesome as ŷou in my 20's. You're learning the lessons now I'm only learning in my 40's. Good on you!!

I'm sorry kawliga but I have to disagree that being called fat isn't a matter for HR. Perhaps it's your workplace is odd, but in my current workplace (and I live in Abu Dhabi, a bastion of non-PC) HR would certainly get involved if an employee was making people uncomfortable. My previous employers also had strict policies on "appropriate workplace conversations" and commenting on a person's appearance directly to them in that manner was certainly not on the list of appropriate conversations. The fact that this young woman also had to prior complaints against her for similar comments would say that the OP's workplace also takes comments like that seriously.

Really, any good HR would come down on her for creating an uncomfortable working environment.

Also, technically the OP wasn't entirely in the wrong when she said she could have the woman fired. She said that the woman had 2 strikes against her and her company has a 3 strikes your out policy, so all the OP had to do was make a complaint and there woman would be gone.

Personally I think you handled it well OP.

Don't let the French thing fool you. She'd be seen as just if not more rude here too. Ask if she means to be rude. Don't be subtle.

Perhaps it's your workplace is odd

Yes, this is possible. But I've worked in many places, and while it's possible that they were all odd I think the truth is that mumsnet is a very cloistered world in which all the employers are lovely cuddly warm people who are happy to back the reasonable employee in a fight with unreasonable colleagues. OP is lucky that the HR guy is her friend; if he wasn't, this could have ended differently.

Reality for most working people is cold and harsh. You only have to read the news, and see the horrific cases that come to employment tribunals, to realize that the vast majority of people do not work in a place where HR would give a rat's arse if they came to complain that a junior colleague called them fat.

In my experience (obviously odd by MN standards) the main role of HR is to oversee hiring and firing, make sure that no workplace laws are being violated, ensure that the employer is not exposed to unfair dismissal lawsuits for failing to follow procedures, etc. Going to HR with reports of he-said she-said fights is not the path to getting promoted. Although there are always posters here who say that they stand for their rights and HR is always happy to back them up...I don't think that experience is typical.

This never needed to get to a place where that difficult conversation had to happen.

The conversation and threat of the sack only happened because you engaged in the personal conversation. This could have been nipped in the bud right at the beginning as soon as she started the conversation and your response could have been 'ok, let's look at what we need to do from a work perspective'. If I had been asked if I went to the gym, I would have smiled and have responded with 'Lets look at your actions for today and see what I need to do to support you with this'.

Engaging in the first place, led to further difficult conversations.

"make sure that no workplace laws are being violated, ensure that the employer is not exposed to unfair dismissal lawsuits for failing to follow procedures,.."

And she called me fat and HR did nothing could also be viewed upon as the company not protecting an employee from another employee who repeatedly makes inappropriate comments, creates hostile working environment, etc.

Engaging in the first place, led to further difficult conversations

This exactly, egged on by all the posters saying tell her this, tell her that, send her this email, call her to this meeting. When actually, a version of 'smile and nod' would have nipped this right in the bud.

I thought OP came on for some light-hearted venting - the stapling thing. Instead she got encouraged to whip the thing up into a frenzy, until there were meetings, threats of firing and reports to HR.

I do think people should be careful with advice when a poster is actually at work.

And she called me fat and HR did nothing could also be viewed upon as the company not protecting an employee from another employee who repeatedly makes inappropriate comments, creates hostile working environment, etc.

On mumsnet: yes, absolutely
In actual employment tribunals: no. You would be surprised how many actually unlawful comments - racist, sexist, disablist, etc - fail in real tribunal cases brought by vulnerable employees. A manager complaining that a junior employee called her fat is mumsnetworthy but not tribunal-worthy, sorry. I know it's hurtful, but there is no general protection from other people saying hurtful things at work.

I feel that mumsnet gives people a completely unrealistic view of how much the world cares about their hurt feelings. If you work in such a place, you are lucky, but most people don't inhabit that world.

the truth is that mumsnet is a very cloistered world in which all the employers are lovely cuddly warm people who are happy to back the reasonable employee in a fight with unreasonable colleagues.

I certainly don't work in a cloistered world, and have worked in several cultures and for several major international companies. My employers certainly haven't all been "lovely cuddly warm people" but they have been professional, and concerned about workplace atmosphere. If an employee is repeatedly being reported to HR for inappropriate comments, they do take that seriously. I'm sincerely shocked that your workplace wouldn't?

Surely, if workplace harassment or inappropriate comments get to the level that it has to go to a tribunal or, even worse, the media, that's a sign you work for a shit company. Most HR's, and most workplaces, try to avoid getting to those levels.