To request no children at my Mum's funeral?

[missmalteaser]

I know I am deep in grief and anger stages right now so maybe not thinking straight.

I know that my mum would not have wanted her two Great grandchildren to be upset (they are 3 and 6)/attend her funeral, so I politely asked the mum of the children (nephew's partner) if she could veto the service and bring them straight to the wake as these are the wishes of my Dad and I truly believe the wishes of my late mum. She is still insisting on bringing them and has also caused a rift between us and nephew at a time when we should be pulling together. Her excuse is lack of childcare, although her mum and dad are heavily involved with the children.

As an aside, selfishly I don't want toddlers interrupting my final goodbye to my Mum.

Please help.

Another thing, my mum had time to tell us what she wanted for her funeral. After she died it became a focus to get it right for her - it was very important to us at that time. If the OP and her dad feel that her mum wouldn't have wanted these young children there who might get upset - then I don't think that is unreasonable. I really doubt the funeral will mean anything to these children other than a somber strange thing.

I don't understand why people are focusing on how the children feel and if it will matter if they don't attend. The nephew wants his children with him, the OP hasn't said anything about the children demanding to attend.

'The nephew wants his children with him'

And the spouse of the lady doesn't want the kids there. People want a lot of things in life, but as adults, sometimes you realise that it's the right thing to do to put other peoples' feelings first because they are in an even worse way than yourself and you be the bigger person and suck it up, not spit your dummy out.

I can see your reasoning, and I'm terribly sorry for your loss, but I think it's a parent's decision whether or not it's right for their children to go to a funeral - there are arguably a lot of merits to normalising these things, so they may not be as upset as you think.

Is grief all about the funeral? To me it makes about as much sense as saying that marriage is all about the wedding ceremony.

Grieving is a long process that is both solitary and about other people.

The funeral is the public bit and if it goes reasonably smoothly that's helpful. But if there are one or two glitches, that's hardly the big problem. The actual problem is getting used to the fact that someone isn't alive any more.

I also think it's acceptable not to feel bound by the wishes of a person who is no longer alive. My very elderly father in law has stated he wants a 'high Anglican funeral'. In all the time I have known him - twenty years plus - he has never attended a church service or said or done or read anything that indicates he has any Christian beliefs whatsoever. When the time comes he'll get a simple Humanist ceremony that will be planned to reflect his personality.

My very elderly father in law has stated he wants a 'high Anglican funeral'. In all the time I have known him - twenty years plus - he has never attended a church service or said or done or read anything that indicates he has any Christian beliefs whatsoever. When the time comes he'll get a simple Humanist ceremony that will be planned to reflect his personality.

I' m glad you're not my family. I'm not a church goer but I want a traditional funeral in my local church because it's at the heart of our village which I've had a lot to do with in the many years I've lived here. I want specific music that reflects me. I don't want a soulless service in our modern crematorium.

I hope my wishes can be respected, unlike your F-i-L's. Have you told him you're ignoring his wishes?

I think your situation is different NannyOgg. My father in law lives in a city and has isolated himself from others. Sadly when somebody is extremely old in these circumstances, there are relatively few mourners. Also as he has had dementia for some years and makes many contradictory statments, it really isn't easy to establish what his wishes are.

We think what he meant was that he wanted things done properly.

My husband and I have attended elaborate Anglican services where a vicar struggled to come up with platitudes about a stranger - and stuck in a few remarks about a deity which most people present don't believe in. We have also attended simple and moving Humanist services where the celebrant had taken enormous care to work with the family to shape a ceremony that reflected the life of the person who had died.

We have felt the latter seemed a great deal more 'proper'. My husband's brother, a committed Christian, is entirely happy with this decision.

I'm with Nanny Ogg on this. A wish for a High Anglican funeral indicates that he wants a traditional, formal occasion, not the more personal low-key event that you would like. It's not your funeral. You have what you want when it's your turn.

'It's what he/she would have wanted' has always been the benchmark for funerals in our family.

In Op's case, they have a very clear idea of the deceased's views AND they are views that are shared by those closest to her. There's nothing outrageous about wanting those at the service to be of an age when they can take part in a meaningful way. Many people believe that the Congregation has a role to play. They're not just an audience or spectators.

Funerals don't have to be public. They don't have to be anything. You can be buried at sea or (assuming you can comply with conditions) be buried in your garden.

Missmalteaser I'm so sorry for your loss. It can feel almost impossible to cope with little things at the moment, let alone the big ones. The only thing I'd add is that no matter what your mum would have felt about the children attending or not attending the funeral the thing that would have mattered to her more than ever is that its not a cause of unhappiness. You have so many more important things to worry about. A wedding is just a day but we get ridiculously stressed about it being perfect when what really matters is the lifetime partnership that follows it. Your mum's funeral is the same in a funny way. I remember my mum getting massively stressed about wanting everything to be perfect for my stepdad's funeral, its a terribly difficult day, and, like organising a wedding it feels infinitely important. But actually its not, the really important thing is how your whole family grieves and survives her loss together. I promise you won't regret anything that you do to avoid rows or unhappiness.

tiggytape, I agree, I said earlier that I don't think children should be forced to attend. The parents are the ones able to judge.

Thymeout, maybe it depends on religion or denomination. My children attended Mass on Sundays from a few weeks old. It was considered entirely normal and they were still part of the congregation. One of my earliest memories is being in my father's arms at a crowded Mass, no seats so dad was standing holding me. I was probably 3.

'That's not true and it's not a fair comparison expat.'

Sure it is, especially early on in the thread. Plenty of 'children have the right to be at a funeral'. More than one.

Some people believe it's all very important that children, or anyone who pleases, be at funerals, more important than the wishes of the deceased or the deceased's next of kin. Others don't.

None is more right than the other.

And yy, you'll come out with all the 'bereavement charities' say it's best but ultimately, grief is not just about a funeral, and, depending on the bereavement, there's no right or wrong. I don't have much experience of 'bereavement charities' besides those that deal with child loss, all of whom pretty much state the same thing: however you can get through it without killing yourself is how you go. Again, I understand, losing a child is a different sort of bereavement entirely.

My kids did not go to their sister's funeral. This is the smallest part of any fallout they have had from her death, since it was against the natural order and thankfully not so very common in the West. And even between them, the fallout is different, as DS has Asperger's. He doesn't perceive the way his sister does.

For most children in developed nations, the first experience of death they have is an elderly relative, and again, it is a different sort of grief entirely.

Hence, grief is a very individual thing and, as such, funerals are.

This particular spouse doesn't want children there. The thread is 'To request no children at my Mum's funeral' not any funeral.

My husband and I have attended elaborate Anglican services where a vicar struggled to come up with platitudes about a stranger - and stuck in a few remarks about a deity which most people present don't believe in. We have also attended simple and moving Humanist services where the celebrant had taken enormous care to work with the family to shape a ceremony that reflected the life of the person who had died.

Which is a roundabout way of saying that you intend to make his funeral all about your own wants and preferences while you ignore his. Which is pretty vile tbh. And jaw droppingly selfish.

expat I completely agree with you, that is exactly what I meant. This whole attitude that everywhere must be child friendly and welcoming and nobody has a right to object if their presence leads to inappropriate behaviour and upset is just selfish as well.

Having read quite a few threads on MN regarding children's behaviour in church where a large number of parents seem to view them as a glorified playgroup where running, shouting, laughing, throwing toys, eating picnics or reading aloud are all totally acceptable activities: well TBH I can really understand why people are very reluctant to have those sort of 'my child must be welcomed and accommodated' parents there. They tend to have the type of children who are most likely to be disruptive and unpleasant.

MarianneSolong re "I also think it's acceptable not to feel bound by the wishes of a person who is no longer alive. My very elderly father in law has stated he wants a 'high Anglican funeral'. In all the time I have known him - twenty years plus - he has never attended a church service or said or done or read anything that indicates he has any Christian beliefs whatsoever. When the time comes he'll get a simple Humanist ceremony that will be planned to reflect his personality."

I am sorry but even if he has dementia then I think you owe it to your FIL to respect his wishes.

Your idea that a vicar will automatically do a crap job and a humanist will automatically do a good job is a bit of a big assumption.

Re We have felt the latter seemed a great deal more 'proper'. My husband's brother, a committed Christian, is entirely happy with this decision.

I am also a committed Christian and I am sure your BIL is trying to do the right thing but to be fair it is not your BIL's funeral you are thinking about/planning.

expatinscotland totally agree with your post at 15:24 today.

I love kids, I've got two, they are the most brilliant children in the world, but for one reason or another they are not able to sit still and quietly very easily at all! Recently went to a school event, not a funeral, of course, but relatively formal. All the five year and six year olds up the front 'performing' and in the audience a variety of babes in arms, and toddlers. The majority were quiet or asleep. A small number kept up a fair amount of noise that made it hard to follow the soft voices at the front. That's life, of course no mum or dad can find childcare for every school event and I am sure no one minded being in the company of little ones on that occasion. But if I were saying goodbye to my life partner or parent, perhaps listening to a specially chosen piece or music or speaking aloud, I would be pretty upset to have the rights of the kids to be there put above the rights of the others.

And we said yes to children at my Mum's funeral (which went brilliantly). The only kids there were teens or almost teens and they behaved brilliantly.

For some funerals children would be a welcome delight. But one should respect both the deceased and the next of kin.

Sorry, colabucks, wanted to reply but have been busy with my mum's funeral. Re "Both of my Granddads died when I was 4-5 and I didn’t go to either funeral, and now I'm 19 and still haven't been to a funeral, and even though I've seen them on TV or whatever, I really dread attending them, and have no idea what to expect."

My experience of funeral is the body is in a coffin up the front, and usually the casket is closed. The gathering may sing a song, listen to some music, have a message which may or may not be religious, and people wish the next of kin or other relatives may say a few words about the deceased.

In my experince the funeral sometimes ends on a lovely song, often more upbeat and one the deceased really loved. We had my dad's funeral about a decade ago and have just had my Mum's funeral. On both occasions we had an uplifting 'pop' type song at the end and walked out into the sunlight to look at the flowers. It is funny but having sat and concentrated and thought (and cried, a lot) it felt coming out into the sunlight that a bit of a weight had been lifted.

We then headed off for the 'wake' - don't like that word, prefer the word 'celebration'. We ate and drank and chatted and it was lovely.

For me it was especially wonderful that someone who i was not expecting to see had come, and I felt honoured. I think all who were there wanted to be there.

By the age of 19 I had only been to one funeral, my grandmothers who died when I was 15. My other grandparents died, one before I was born, one when I was about one year old and one when I was about 10. I never felt particularly sorry not to go to those funerals and to be honest the older you get the more funerals you will eventually go to! I have now been to two mums funerals, who had kids my daughters age, two older people's funerals, and three children's funerals.

I only missed one funeral, as an adult, that I really feel I should have gone to, and I wished very much at the time I had gone, I felt at the time I had a valid reason not to go but I should have gone. I really think funerals are just a part of life and death and there are many ways of honouring and remembering the dead. The man whose funeral I missed I was involved in a college service to remember him, plant a tree in his memory and I stayed in touch with his parents for a long while because I felt so bad for missing the funeral.

Life is about learning and moving on. And there are many, many ways to learn about life and death that are nothing to do with the actual funeral.

colabucks, when you attend your first I am sure it will be about how much you cared for the person who died.

Italiangreyhound, so sorry you have lost your mum. I hope the funeral went as well as these things possibly can.

missmalteaser, if you're still reading, I hope everything settles down and you get to say goodbye to your mum in the way you want.

for you both.

Thanks Catzpyjamas it went very well. My mum was ill for a long time so it was a blessed release and a chance to remember her how she was in her life before she got ill.

When dd was cremated, no one was invited, it was a closed, private ceremony. I would have been devastated if anyone violated that at the most difficult time of our lives.

slithytove so sorry to hear about your precious dd.

Whatever works for the family who are grieving, is the right thing. I can't imagine how I would cope. I think death of the older generation, like my dad and then my mum, is so much easier, it feels natural in one sense especially when the person has reached there 80 plus years.

Thinking of you.

Just wanted to come back to the people re my father-in-law's funeral. Obviously when the time comes it will be my husband who is making all the arrangements. But due to my father-in-law's extreme age and frailty there has been a bit of thinking ahead.

Firstly both of us are - to an extent - from religious backgrounds. We take belief seriously. If somebody was a regular worshipper or an active member of a community around the church, their wishes would definitielybe honoured.

But often people who are from faith backgrounds, find certain kinds of statements/actions/asseritions made by non-worshippers in relation to religion a bit difficult. For example regular church attenders may find it a bit tricky when people just pitch up because they want to get their kids into the highly rated faith school. Or because they want the vicar to say s/he'll marry them, because the church will look good in pictures.

Also one of the difficulties with dementia - I don't know how many people here have older family members with this - is that there are so many wishes which seem to come from a strange place or/cannot be acted on. For example my father in law regularly requests certain kinds of shopping from us - prawns, bacon etc - that we do not buy him because he has forgotten basic food hygiene and he will poison himself if we accede to his wishes. He's said he'll throw his £2,000 hearing aid into the bin because it is cheap and worthless. He rarely leaves his room and cannot walk more than a few steps without getting breathless and gets panicky when escorted round the pond in a nearby park - , but talks of exotic holidays he wants to take. My husband has Power of Attorney with regard to both finance and welfare.

Our focus is very much on keeping him safe and well and visiting him and looking after him during the remainder of his life - and to be honest I think that is what matters most of all.

I brought up the issue to illustrate that there are times when the family will weigh up a statement made by an elderly person about what they want. But decide to make a different call.

I think religion should be open to everyone, even if we do only want it at the important milestones. People might not normally attend church, but still want to get married before God because it's important to them, or still want their children to be brought up with the teachings they had, or want to have their funeral in a sacred place. I don't think the church should ever only be open to those who chose to worship on a regular basis, we can all treat faith in our own way, and I think it's nice to respect that and not roll our eyes at people only getting involved for certain events. Anyway, we're so off topic now and probably not helping OP, but I do think you should put more thought into your FIL's request and try to remove your own views from the decision x

Marianne been thinking of you and hoping I was not too harsh in my views re your FIL.

Re "But often people who are from faith backgrounds, find certain kinds of statements/actions/asseritions made by non-worshippers in relation to religion a bit difficult. For example regular church attenders may find it a bit tricky when people just pitch up because they want to get their kids into the highly rated faith school. Or because they want the vicar to say s/he'll marry them, because the church will look good in pictures."

Enter stage left, the Church of England, or Anglican Church if you will. The church for everyone because it is divided up into parishes and everybody is in a parish so the vicar/priest or curate has the cure of all the souls there in. In your shoes I would not worry about what the church will think about doing its job, I would worry how your husband may feel is he denies his father his final wishes, no matter how much you wonder whether he has a real faith or not.

Can I ask if you have a faith in Christ and attend a church, you mentioned "Firstly both of us are - to an extent - from religious backgrounds. We take belief seriously.'

The description of your dad is very sad but also makes me remember my dear mum, recently departed who had dementia too. She would often ask for money to give to a member of staff at her nursing home (strictly against the rules in the nursing home to give staff anything of value) and of course she was not given it! Were we to have brought the money she would not have remember who she had wanted to give it to!

Re Our focus is very much on keeping him safe and well and visiting him and looking after him during the remainder of his life - and to be honest I think that is what matters most of all. You are, indeed, right.

I just don't understand your objection to a high Anglican send off. Unless this was a very much single or rare comment and a throw away comment.

If he regularly fluctuates between a high Anglican service and a humanist service, I would understand more.

So I do agree with Jade.

Marianne, have you offered to take him to a high Anglican Church, the smells and bells may bring him some comfort. I often prayed for my mum when I visited, although she did not have a living faith, (IMHO) but she had an understanding and was open to be prayed for.

Bless you as you care for your FIL, it is not easy at all.

It's kind of you to come back to me Italian. It was very much of a one-off comment by my father-in-law - which my husband and I were startled by. He really does show absolutely no interest in religion whatsoever. There is actually the opportunity for short religious worship in his sheltered accommodation and he never goes - or has expressed any interest in doing so.

I think if I started talking about where my husband and I were and are in regard to organised religion, it would be a very long post indeed!

It would also be a very long post if I were to talk in more detail about the extent to which my father-in-law had (and/or hadn't) been a 'good'' father to my husband.

So often on Mumsnet there are profoundly different and deeply held ideas about what the 'right' thing to do is.

Taking care of the very old is difficult. Knowing quite how to deal with eveything and everyone is also difficult. My husband and I are doing our best - even if our best is not the same as somebody else's best.

MarianneSolong thanks, if the desire for a high Anglican was a flippant throw away on the part of your FIL then I can totally understand your not taking it seriously. It sounded more (to me) in your opening post like it was his wish.

My mum;s funeral was very recently and she was not 'religious' but my sis and I felt that Mum would appreciate a Christian service (even though sis is not 'religious' any more). I think when it came to it the service was lovely, and it seemed appropriate. Our garden is still full of lovely flowers from the funeral.

All best wishes as you look after your FIL, it is definitely not easy.

Op I have not forgotten you and hope that all is going OK where you are.