My dad and DH have fallen out - what do I do?

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I don't want to drip-feed so apologies if this is long. My dad and my DH have fallen out and I feel stuck in the middle and unsure what to do.

DH and I (both in our 30s) have a 2 month old baby. When my waters broke just before midnight I went to the hospital alone, taking a taxi (we're in London, about 15-20 mins from the hospital depending on traffic). I insisted DH stay home as he wasn't feeling well, I knew I'd most likely be sent straight home, and I wanted him to get as much sleep as possible before I really needed him during active labour. He had his phone ringer on so had he needed to join me at the hospital he could have. In hindsight he feels that he should have insisted he come with me but I've always been very independent - in over 7 years together I've never asked or expected him to meet me at bus stops, walk me home etc - so in his tired and ill state he just accepted my insistence. As it happened I was indeed sent home and he went back with me in the morning when labour had progressed. I didn't think any more of it except feeling probably quite proud of myself for doing that first trip alone when I was heavily pregnant and a little in shock. Again in hindsight, that was probably quite naive of me but it didn't cross my mind to do it any differently.

My dad visited us a couple of weeks back and took DH aside to have a word. I had no idea what it was about as he'd said nothing to me, but it turned out he wanted to tell DH how upset he - and the rest of the family - was that he'd let me go to hospital alone in a vulnerable state. Their stories differ at this point. Dad says that he voiced his concerns but DH wouldn't listen so he lost his temper. DH says that my dad told him he's a bad father, that the whole family thinks so and that they've all - including me?! - been worrying about the hospital incident for weeks. In actual fact my mum says she was concerned (and of course I understand why) but she and my dad's partner made him promise not to bring it up and cause a scene - but he ignored that and did it anyway.

DH says my dad then grabbed him and raised his fist as if to hit him. DH at this point was freaked out by his aggression so pulled away from him and left our flat. All I know is I heard DH tell my dad to fuck off, then saw my dad, who was shaking with anger, chasing after him shouting that he was a fucking coward and to grow some balls. DH refused to come home until my dad had left.

I and my mum tend to believe DH's version as my dad has a history of being very short tempered and occasionally violent - DH literally wouldn't even raise his voice to someone and is the least aggressive person I know. My mum agrees that DH is probably telling the truth - she and my dad divorced partly because my dad was so volatile. He has in the past been held in a police cell after attacking his girlfriend (he claims not to remember) and has threatened suicide and self harm in the presence of, or in order to manipulate, me and my sisters.

To give a final bit of context: DH was already very stressed when my dad visited as my dad is very money and career focused and has on several occasions taken DH aside to ‘talk’ to him about his attitude to these things. DH isn't career-minded and I'm the main breadwinner in our relationship. He's also currently unemployed after being let go at new year and looking for a new job which has been making things hard work on top of having a new baby so he was already very depressed and down on himself and expecting a lecture from my dad made him feel worse. DH has made huge efforts to build a relationship with my dad but has been increasingly frustrated that dad only ever talks about money and doesn't seem interested in him as a person. Equally my dad is clearly frustrated that his daughter isn't being looked after in the traditional alpha male sense and while his approach is often wrong he clearly is just looking out for me.

However, after this fight my DH wants nothing more to do with my dad. He's scared of him, thinks he's frankly psychotic and isn't showing any signs of forgiving him for what he sees as an emotional and physical attack in his own home. My dad has tried to offer an olive branch via WhatsApp but DH won't accept his apology or even speak to him. This was really the last straw.

Now I'm in the situation of my dad wanting to still be part of my - and my baby's - life but logistically this now being difficult (he lives a couple of hours away) and also, to be completely honest, I feel resentful that he went ahead and caused this situation despite my mum and his current partner both begging him not to say anything. He's sending me very nice messages and claiming that he doesn't want to jeopardise my relationship with DH but that's all very well in hindsight - as usual he had to say his piece and to hell with the consequences. He's had a problem with my DH for a while so this was a long time coming but I'm angry that it had to be now when we're already going through a lot. I'm questioning whether I really want this man in my life but knowing how volatile and depressive he is I would, at the end of the day, feel bad for cutting him out. It's also not in my nature to do so.

I do wonder if I and my mum/sisters have been enabling this behaviour for too long. My mum agrees in one breath but in the other is saying he's still my dad and is checking to make sure I'm still sending him pictures of my baby so he doesn't miss out.

I just don't know how to navigate this situation. I'd like DH to at least listen to dad's apology but can also see why he no longer wants anything to do with him. To be honest I'm sure that in time he may come round to at least tolerating my dad's presence. But how can I continue a normal relationship with my dad, and make him part of my baby's life, with such a big elephant in the room? I'm still sending baby pictures to him and replying to his messages but I'm struggling to muster any enthusiasm for staying in contact. Even the mention or thought of my dad makes me feel very down.

Who here is being unreasonable? Am I? Is my DH for not wanting any more to do with him? Or is my dad?

I'm glad you are seeing the reality of the situation better.

Yes you have all been conditioned into making allowances for your fathers behaviour and normalising/justifying it. Meanwhile your DH is thinking rationally and going with "Who the f*ck do you think you are to behave like that towards my son, wife & I"

Yes it is time you see your dad for who he is, and start to not make allowances or excuse his abusive behaviour.

This thread is utterly bonkers.

If the situation was reversed and OP was the husband and his DW the recipient of the arm grabbing, criticism and shouting then the entirety of MN would be yelling at the OP to back his wife up and cut ties with the DF.

OP, firstly congratulations on your DC

Secondly, you took a pragmatic decision when you went to the hospital alone. Your DH wasn't well and you thought it likely you were going to come home anyway. Nobody died so we move on from it.

Thirdly, if you believe that your DH is the one telling the truth, then you need to back him up. He comes first and you owe him your loyalty - because if the situation was reversed you would expect him to put you first.

Fourthly, your 'D'F sounds like an abusive fucking arsehole. He isn't entitled to see you or your child. He doesn't have rights. A grandchild is a privilege; I would be making it damn clear that he lost any opportunity of enjoying that privilege when he verbally attacked your DH and physically restrained him - because that is what he did.

The dynamic in your family sounds fucked up - the fact that your DM is texting to make sure that your F doesn't 'miss out'. The only reason he will miss out is through his own completely unacceptable behaviour. You have the control and the power and if you choose to, you can make this stop NOW. Do you feel that your F is someone that you want your baby around? Think about your childhood memories - are those what you want for your own child?

I would be cutting contact with him, without hesitation. I do have some experience in this, so am not blithely recommending something without knowing the sharp end of it myself!

I'm just not sure how I can completely cut ties without causing problems with the rest of my family. Surely controlled visits would be a better compromise? Although I completely take all your points about him being poisonous and I guess at some point down the line I might have the issue of him contacting my son directly and potentially being a negative influence that way...

I'm clearly just a wuss as I have no idea how to cut contact without upsetting people but I know I should be putting my own family first now. I grew up with an extended family who had various nc situations over the years and was really hoping it wouldn't be the same for my children.

So not upsetting your sister/Mum is more important than supporting your husband and protecting your child from his abusive toxic GF??

You don't have to be dramatic just decline meet ups and if your DF asks why just tell him that you've had enough of his disrespect towards you and your family. He will probably kick off etc and go NC with you tbh!

Controlled visits are just about pandering to your DF bullying.

But you don't need to compromise? Why should you - because it's not just about you anymore - it's about your DH and your child as well. What is in their best interests?

Your DH doesn't want to see him. You have negative childhood experiences of him, which presumably you don't want for your son. So who exactly is benefiting from these 'controlled' visits?

I suspect that the visits would serve one purpose only, and that is to keep your F happy - because if he's not happy then he pulls the strings and the rest of the family dances in response. It's very interesting that your parents are divorced and yet your Mum is still responding to his needs - why is that?

The way your family responds is up to them. You are in the FOG - Fear, Obligation, Guilt.

You fear the consequences
You feel obliged to keep the peace - because it's 'family'
You feel guilty about upsetting them because they will create tension if you don't do what they want.

Breaking out of the FOG is difficult but not impossible. The first thing that you need to accept is that you are not powerless. As a result of conditioning all these years, you feel that you have no choice because that's the way it is. You are in a prison cell, but if you look at your hands, you'll see that you are holding the key!

Need to go out but will come back later.

Ignoring everything else why would you want an aggressive physically violent bully near your baby?

You need to break the cycle; it reads very much as you, your sisters, your mum, and his girlfriend have all been conditioned to appease him.

It does read as though you whether knowingly or not choose a partner very different to your father and on some level he see this as an insult. Having these chats with your DH is disrespectful to both of you.

Do you really want your child to grow up seeing both you and their Dad being disrespected and dismissed. You say he isn't imposing himself, he doesn't have to you're used to doing what he wants.

Honestly if I was your husband and my wife took our baby to see this man I would be angry, very hurt and questioning our relationship.

I appreciate this must be very very hard for you. But as I and other posters have said its time to break the cycle. Your dad needs to finally see that his actions have consequences.

You're right - I only feel the need to let him see my son to keep him happy. Part of me would be so relieved not to have to deal with him any more. I thought that was the lazy way out which is partly why I posted this but opinion seems to suggest that actually not seeing him any more would be the hard way as it'll take time and willpower to break the habits of a lifetime

I am afraid you might just have to. Put your little family first, and distance yourself with those who are not supportive. I am sure your mum will be, after all he was abusive to her and tgat was the reason for their separation.

Back again...I'll give you some context that I have walked the walk:

I moved away from my family when I first met my DH. Up until that point I had always seen my family regularly, gone home for every Xmas etc., etc. The first year my DH was very keen to spend Xmas as a couple, driven by the fact that we had jobs where we both only got the day itself as time off - we were both due to work Boxing Day, the Xmas 'bridge' plus NYE and NYD. So it actually made sense not to do a round trip of thousands of miles, costing £££££.

My Mum hit the roof. I had tears, guilt trips, arguments, additional family members were drafted in to contact me and tell me how unreasonable I was being, that I was selfish for upsetting her, that I would ruin Xmas if I didn't go - sound familiar? This was the first time I had EVER tried to say no and it was quite frankly, awful. DH was supportive, but kept pointing out that by the time I'd got there after finishing work on Xmas Eve, then factored in enough time to have some sleep before returning to work on Boxing day, that I would be lucky to have a few hours there. He highlighted the fact that family who had my best interests at heart would not want me driving a huge journey through the night, after working all day, to then have to repeat the journey back a few hours later. That it wasn't safe. So I stuck to my guns and didn't go.

The next upset was when we got married. The same routine all over again when I didn't want the wedding that she'd envisaged for me. Tears, threats, tantrums, family members telling me I was a bad daughter for upsetting her. She attended our wedding which DH supported despite her being vile to him, because I couldn't get past the FOG of her not being there. The upshot was that she played up on our wedding day, pulled a really nasty stunt which pretty much ruined everything which she knew would upset me and was horrible to DH again. It was at that point I decided enough was enough, so I agreed with DH that I would maintain contact with her, but that he wouldn't be included.

Fast forward a few years later and I found out, quite by accident, that she had been spreading some really horrible rumours about DH round the extended family. Do you know how guilty I felt when I found out? DH had taken shit from her for my sake for YEARS, simply because I could not muster the strength to put the boundaries in place. Now he was being run down behind his back (for reasons which were completely untrue). I went nuclear and we had a huge falling out. I didn't speak to her and ignored all attempts from family members to engage me in a guilt trip - I was resolute.

Nowadays we actually have a much better relationship. We reconnected after about 6 months, when she eventually apologised. I mulled it over and discussed with DH to ask him what he wanted. He supported limited contact as he thought it was the best option in the circumstances (there are a number of other complicating factors in my situation, which I have left out!). However now that M knows where the limits are and that I will cut her off if she steps out of line, she behaves much better. Her and DH can have a civil conversation at a family gathering and she has, on occasion rather grudgingly(!) admitted that he looks after me and takes care of me. The problem is that my M isn't inherently a bad person; she can be manipulative and devious and spiteful largely as a result of her own upbringing. We have a 'light touch and long distance' relationship and it works best for all concerned.

The moral of the story is that I really do KNOW how difficult it is to try and put those boundaries in place. And whilst I ended up in limited contact with my Mum, I cut contact in full expectation that it would be permanent - and I was prepared to do that. If my Mum had been violent I can tell you that there is no chance in hell that we would be on speaking terms right now.

If you haven't done so already, please have a look at the Stately Homes thread in relationships. There will be lots of help and support for you there, from people who know exactly what you are going through. It's not a quick process, but I promise you that whilst it's utterly shit when you're in the middle of it, you'll be 10x happier on the other side.

Thanks for sharing your experience jolse. I'm sorry you had to go through that but glad things have worked out for the better - that must have taken real courage and been so hard for you.

The thing is that I know my dad loves me and he's gone out of his way in the past to support me in practical ways as well as (much more rarely) emotionally. He's not always gone about it the right way but I've known his heart has been in the right place. That is of course separate to his truly awful behaviour but that was mostly in my past (or directed at someone else). However he has clearly had an issue with my DH for some time and the fact that he has interfered to the extent he has, and made DH feel so shit about himself - albeit maybe inadvertently - on several occasions is, I think (and as so many of you have pointed out) indicative of a worrying attitude towards me and my relationships. This and other occasions have made me question DH when left to our own devices I wouldn't dream of doing so unless he's given me real and good reason to - and in which case that's our issue to deal with and no one else's business.

I'll check out the Stately Homes thread and will have a proper talk with DH about this, as it should be a joint decision when it comes to our son and what contact - if any - my dad has with him.

Oh dont be fooled into thinking your father doesnt mean to make DH feel bad about himself. He does mean to make your DH feel like utter shit. Because hes a bully, and yes he targeted you as you admit he threatened suicide in your presence. You need some distance with your father and some couselling to work out why you still feel you owe your father something.

Oh lovey, I know it's hard.

My Mum once drove to my flat in the middle of the night because I'd broken up with a boyfriend and I was really upset and down.

She once baked my favourite cake and paid for a courier delivery, to cheer me up when I was having a low point.

We've spent many happy hours getting on really well over a shared hobby that we both enjoy.

Although she can behave very very badly, she also has her good spots. The fact that she was utterly vile to my DH didn't mean that she was vile to everyone else, or that she was always a cow.

The problem is that she didn't like my DH, right from the word go. And as soon as I wanted to do something that disagreed with her opinion, or what she wanted or thought was best, then all hell would break loose. I love my DH. Therefore I had a choice - him or her. Bearing in mind that he'd tried and tried to compromise, turn the other cheek out of love for me, make the best of it - yet despite all of that she would up the ante in terms of bad behaviour and REFUSE to even give an inch. It all had to be her way, or no way.

Do you see the similarities here?

I bet that your Dad has helped you because it suited him to. He sees himself as the alpha male so whilst you were unmarried and not a mother, he was the man in your life. Your DH has now effectively replaced him in the pecking order and he doesn't like it - he is essentially a silverback gorilla beating his chest and trying to scare your DH off. I bet no man would measure up to his standards regardless of how amazing they were, simply because he doesn't want to be replaced.

You cannot negotiate with violence. It is a deal breaker. If DH's father had raised a hand to you, what would you expect your DH to do?

Maybe your father feels threatened by your DH and this is his way of throwing his weight around to show you who he thinks is in charge.

Even if your father apologises profoundly and unreservedly to your DH your DH does not have to accept the apology. An apology is all about the apologiser: a regretful acknowledgement of an offence or failure. It does not take away the fact that the offence was given.

Many people grow up without any contact with grandparents for many reasons. They are not damaged by this. If you dont make a big fuss about it your DS wont.

You dont have to make a big pronouncement of 'no contact'. You just stop answering his messages, you stop sending pictures. You dont have to do it all in one go, just get a bit slower at responding to messages. Wait a few days. Dont reply to questions in messages.

I dont have any contact with one of my brothers. It just happened slowly over time and I know I am happier for it.

The hardest hardest thing to realise about all this, as I have watched my husband wrestle with his own difficult family, is that they don't change just because you have had a baby. Somehow you think that because the baby is new and innocent and lovely they will never hurt them. Unfortunately this is not true. You were once that new and innocent and lovely child, and your dad still found it ok to frighten/treat you badly (as well as be a nice dad) to the point that he threatened to kill himself in front of you. He hurt a girlfriend, he put his hands on your partner (I have no doubt your partner is telling the truth), your mum divorced him because of his temper and bullying ways. It will just repeat itself, one day he'll lose his temper in front of your child, because that's how he is. All you can do is decide your own boundaries, and rigorously enforce them.

In my husband's case, it is low contact, so we go (infrequently), we smile, we leave after an hour and we never ever leave the children in their sole care. We don't discuss controversial issues, we don't engage when they ply on the guilt about how they'd like to see us more, do more, or when they try to tell us what to do/how to live/spread nasty stories about us all to provoke a reaction. That's ok for us. If anyone touched my husband they would never ever come in my house again as a starting point.

From what I see, this is less about you and your child - and more about your fathers need to be top dog. Just as your DH became a father, cementing you and him as a family, he had to become aggressive and threatening. It's the equivalent of a dog marking territory. And he has firmly marked your and your child as HIS. You are possessions. His possessions. And your DH was a threat to his ownership.

Do not go to London to meet him. That's just pushing your DH out of the picture even more (he sounds like a decent normal human being).

Tell him you don't think it's appropriate, at the moment, under the circumstances. And if anyone challenges it tell them you are protecting your family. And your first loyalty is to your DH and child.

Don't kid yourself that your father doesn't do this shit deliberately.

Calling the DH a loser because he was what sounds like almost delirious with illness, if my husband had been this ill when my waters broke as they did with my DS I would have rather my DH had some time to rest as I would rather he was ok to support me when actually in labour. The second reason criticising him because he has been been out of work since Christmas and unable to get another job yet well I think you need to get in the real world. this is a reality for a lot of people at the moment and I am guessing the people saying it have never truly struggled to find work.

I agree with others saying not to go to London and meet your Dad. It is simply pushing your DH further out and saying that it's okay to attack your DH in his own home and you'll still meet up with your Dad regardless (and it might even seem like you're doing it behind your DH's back). I'd stick by your DH and tell your Dad you won't be meeting up with him.

I don't think it's quite as bad to send the odd photo to your Dad via email, but it must be done after discussion with your DH and you need to follow your DH's lead regarding how much contact to have.

OMG you married a man who is the COMPLETE opposite of your dad. Did you ever notice that, because it's glaringly obvious? Your dad is a typical strong alpha male, and your DH is very much in touch with his softer side, resting himself in bed while you earn the wages and go to hospital on your own? And to make it even worse, your dad who is much older is physically stronger than your DH? Sounds like the script for a film.

There are all types of men, and they are all lovely, and I'm sure your DH is lovely, but you do have to appreciate that your choice of DH was bound to rub your dad the wrong way. Your dad is wrong to interfere, but OMG I totally get where he is coming from. It's as if you chose a wimpish partner purposely to wind him up, and your DH just keeps on giving him cause to get riled up, and your dad is trying to fix it. Yes, tell your dad to bugger off and leave you alone, but it's not unreasonable for a dad to worry about his daughter when she has to earn the wages and had to take herself to hospital in a taxi while the DH rests in bed.

This is getting funny now

If my father did this to my OH I would not be speaking to my father. Completely unacceptable.