Mother's have it tough

[Zenab1]

Hello mothers, so I had an incident which left me humiliated and angry today. I went to Chatham House, a policy institution in central london to attend a talk that was happening there. When I get to the conference hall, I was told that I was not allowed to get in with my buggy in which my baby girl was peaceful sleeping. Their main excuse was, it's gonna block the way in case people need to evacuate for emergency. I said but this information is not communicated anywhere on your website and I even called to double check and the person I spoke to said you are mother friendly. Anyway, they insisted that I leave the building because they won't let me in. I got so emotional and told them that was unfair as I came from a long way and the whole thing seemed to me some kind of discrimination. They escorted me out and told me that I should complain if I like to by sending an email. I felt so humiliated and degraded. Do you think this was right ladies, it happening in this day and age and in one of the worlds developed countries, that a mum should be mistreated like this for simple being mum?

The op hasn't mentioned disability, so you may be safe to assume in this case it isn't an issue, but for the other posters who have been quite forceful in their views that a wheelchair and buggy aren't the same, please have a rethink because that's not always true.

had the pushchair been needed because there was a disability there wouldn't have been an issue. Because there is provision for those in wheel chairs.

The Op was escorted off the building, spoken to rudely and not allowed in. Yet she had spoken to someone prior to the event and had a ticket. I wouldn't have packed my buggy up, it wouldn't be possible for me to take the baby out of the buggy, fold it and carry the baby in.

No where did the Op say she was spoken to rudely.

She tried to enter and event with something she wasn't allowed to take in, became emotional as was escorted out.

What else would you like them to do. Carry on doing their job while she stands there telling them they are acting illegally. May be she shouldn't have started throwing around unfounded accusations.

This whole 'push chairs and wheel chairs are/could be the same' is total bollocks.

Because the OP has never said her child is disabled. It's a pushchair.

My mother needs a wheel chair, when we are going places, we do check they are wheel chair accessible. She doesn't have a choice to get out and fold it into a laptop size case.

I am sorry but, to compare the two. Especially when it's not relevant to this OP is wrong in so many ways.

Buggy or no buggy this was simply an event unsuitable for children. Many parents do not realise how noisy a sleeping baby can be - they grunt, grizzle, make snuggling noises etc. Unfortunately, in a silent lecture theatre this could be very distracting.
OP - I'm afraid being a parent means not attending certain things with a child. There are few adult spaces left which are not bars or nightclubs. Most pubs and restaurants seem to be 'child friendly ' places where parents can let their little darlings run riot. At least leave us adults the serenity of a lecture hall and an intellectual discussion without feeling hard done by that you cannot bring your children in.

I know comparing wheelchair and pushchair have rubbed many people the wrong way but when I made that reference, I was mainly thinking how they access spaces through lifts, ramps, etc and sometimes have designated disabled/pushchair areas like public transport.

I know pushchairs can fold but might not always be ideal for mums. Imagine if their child is a newborn and they are carrying shopping bags with them ( not that I am referring to this particular incident and saying I had shopping bags or anything but in general), but that's discussion for another day. Hope everyone is having a lovely weekend.

"I know pushchairs can fold but might not always be ideal for mums". You are happy to accept that an article specifically designed for parents of babies might not be ideal?

Some locations and/or events might not always be ideal for mums either. Please have the same level of acceptance.

I know pushchairs can fold but might not always be ideal for mums.

That's the risk you take. If you get on a bus and there isn't room for disabled users and buggies. The buggies need to be folded up. Not stop a disabled person getting on.

I was wondering where the hostility towards baby buggies was coming from , but just read the prev message re buses. The issue is to provide enuf accomodation for both, not to pit one against the other. Just had a mental picture of battle lines drawn up-wheelcahirs on one side, baby buggies on the other!

Armani - it isn't possible to just make places bigger. Especially the solution to the problem is to take your child out of it.

We done infinite space or money to make places bigger. Personally I would prefer money to spend improving disabled access to places rather than on parents who object to telling their babies out of their push chairs.

I still think the buggy issue is a red herring and basically the venue didn't want a young baby at a serious lecture for grown ups and used the buggy as an excuse. We also have only heard one side of the story (obviously) and for the op to escorted out things must have got, errr, somewhat heated. Young babies at a serious lecture/talk, why, just why??

"There is a special place in hell for women who don't help other women"
The general thrust of most posts seems to be "I gave up my life when I had kids, so should you".

Shame on you mumsnetters. The OP has been discriminated against, and since you cannot see it, permit me to point it out:

This almost certainly has nothing to with pushchair space, folded or otherwise. They would be legally obliged to have space for wheelchair users. This is not a "wheelchair v buggy" discussion merely a statement that unless they had lots of wheelchair users that day, there was almost certainly space there where a buggy could be parked without infringing H&S. It is a red herring, an excuse to restrict entry.

Now, lets come to the discrimination part. If the OP was not directly discriminated against, she suffered indirect discrimination.
Directly discriminated would be that if a man had wheeled a buggy up, the organisers would have thought "what a lovely father minding his child for the day " and permitted entry. We cannot show that this was the case, but in my experience and opinion this would be the case.

We can show indirect discrimination though: any "no baby" or "no buggy" rule disproportionately affects women as primary carers (let's not distract ourselves with the "wear a sling", which is another red herring).
This is called "disparate impact" and is illegal like any other form of discrimination. So while Chatham House can have a "no disruption" policy and insist the OP leave if her child is disrupting a lecture, they cannot lawfully have a "no baby" rule for a very young baby. It probably also infringes on breast feeding rights, but I would need to look into this. You should also note that the balance of this discrimination would change with the age of the child as mothers took on less burden or childcare.

If you incurred a financial loss on train tickets or entry tickets as a result of their actions, I would consider seeking some legal advice to reclaim the money, OP

Thanks Maursh, I couldn't agree more

Am I missing something here? Did the OP offer to remove her baby from the buggy and was she still denied entry? Did they explicitly deny entry to her as she was accompanied by a baby?

The OP said she didn't want to take her baby out of the buggy. Chatham house didn't discriminate against the baby, they just didn't let the buggy in. They said with advance notice it would have been possible to make space for the buggy, but on the day it was unfortunately a fire hazard.

I think you'd find it very difficult to try and make a discrimination case out of that. Sure you could write a letter complaining that the person the OP spoke to on the phone wasn't clear that bringing a buggy wasn't an option, but I suspect that the OP didn't ask if it was possible. The events section of the website mentions several times that space is limited, I'd have thought if asked 'can I bring my baby in her buggy' to a public event the answer would most likely have been 'no'.

I work for a university. We let students bring babies to lectures only in exceptional circumstances (childcare breakdowns only really). The expectation is that parents organise childcare. Events aimed at parents or that provide information to communities should have some provision for babies, but otherwise there's no reason to expect that babies will be accommodated.

There is a special place in hell for women who don't help other women"
The general thrust of most posts seems to be "I gave up my life when I had kids, so should you".

You have got to be taking the piss. There is a special place in hell for you because you think the op should have taken her child out of its push chair.

Thank god I am not religious.

I am not obliged legally or morally to agree with some one based the fact that, that person has a fanjo.

I didn't give my own life up when I had kids. I did however make adjustments. You know like everyone does everyday. The same as I adjusted my sleeping pattern and napped in the afternoon. After any life changing event, life changes.

Am I missing something here? Did the OP offer to remove her baby from the buggy and was she still denied entry? Did they explicitly deny entry to her as she was accompanied by a baby?

Yes, you missed that it was nothing to do with the buggy, this was the excuse provided and the OP was escorted off the premises. Moreover, had she removed sleeping baby from the pram the child might them have become disruptive thereby denying her entry. Legally, they must have space for wheelchairs, which would obviously have priority, but could be used for a buggy if not otherwise utilised.

We let students bring babies to lectures only in exceptional circumstances (childcare breakdowns only really).

Your university having this policy does not make it lawful, any more than Chatham House. The university is vulnerable to this policy being challenged since it pretty much only affects female students. Rather sad that this group probably doesn't have the means to do much about it, but that doesn't make it lawful. If you have a Faculty of Law perhaps ask for their opinion on this policy.

Don't get me wrong, I am not making an argument that children should be allowed anywhere at anytime. I am just stating that EBF small babies are dependent on their mothers and any policies that refuse them entry are discriminatory because they affect only a protected sector of society.

Curren: There is a special place in hell for you because you think the op should have taken her child out of its push chair.

It is a Madeleine Albright quote
And at no time did I state (or think!?!) that the OP should take the child out of their pushchair.

Why quote if it's not relevant?

I know it's a quote, you used quotation marks.

You used it to illustrate you point. But it's not relevant?

The op was escorted out after accusing them of breaking the law and becoming emotional. They told her it was not allowed. What she decided after that was up to her.

At not point as the op said the baby was ebf and in fact was trying to get a baby sitter to have the baby. Which suggests that she could I. Fact leave the baby.

Breast feeding isn't part of this, because it was about the push cajole NOT the baby

I still don't think there is evidence that the buggy was an excuse since at no time did she apparently offer to remove the child. If the OP had made her enquiry more specific when she checked beforehand she would have been clearer about what was welcomed and accepted.

I think you'd have a difficult time making a watertight discrimination case out of this based on the information given.

"There is a special place in hell for women who don't help other women"

Sorry but as soon as you stated using statement like that you lose whatever point you were trying to make.

Yes, you missed that it was nothing to do with the buggy, this was the excuse provided and the OP was escorted off the premises.

You weren't there. You have no idea.

You have no idea it was 'an excuse'.

It seems like you are deliberately trying to find discrimination to make a point.

It probably also infringes on breast feeding rights

The op at no point says they are ebf so that statement isn't relevant.

Thank the Lord for posters like Maursh, showing a bit of insight and compassion.

The focus should be in the kind of world we want to live in and how to achieve this. So a place where buggies are accommodated and new mothers are not frozen out of public life.

Rather than bleating about rules and health and safety. Like these are edicts decreed by the gods rather than bureaucracy that can be sensibility thought through and adjusted to accommodate new needs.

Isn't that what disability campaigners did and continue to do?

Thank the Lord for posters like Maursh, showing a bit of insight and compassion.

Yes because using terms like 'fresh place on hell for women who don't help other people' is so full of insight and compassion

The OP wasn't frozen out of public life. She just couldn't use the buggy. There is a difference.

Please stop likening it to disability.

Isn't that what disability campaigners did and continue to do?

is not comparable to disability. Why do people keep saying this shit?

In that access is a problem both for those using wheelchairs and those dependent on buggies. Isn't that obvious?

Why can't I say that?

The magnitude, severity, timescale and implications of these two problems is wildly different.

Rightly, disability access is prioritised.

But, for some reason on mumsnet, that seems to mean that those using buggies should simply accept that this means they are limited in where they can go and what they can do.

Rather than seek a world where access for all is the goal.

And I simply can't wrap my head around that line of thinking.

those dependent on buggies unless there are disabilites which affect other options then no one is dependent on a buggy.