To be really upset with my brother re: ds?

[VicWillia]

I'm genuinely interested to see if people think I'm right to be angry or if it's my ds who is a little wotsit who needs better discipline.

Ds is 5. He can be pretty cheeky as I guess a lot of 5 yo boys are. He is quite naughty with saying sorry - if he upsets someone it usually takes quite a while on the naughty step before he'll apologize. He's pretty stubborn.

Tonight, we were visiting my dm and my brother was there too. Ds was being cheeky and told my brother he was "fatty". For some reason my brother took massive offence (he isn't fat so he can't have taken it personally) and grabbed ds hands, saying he wouldn't let go until ds said sorry. Ds was trying to squirm away and wouldn't apologize. My brother wouldn't let him go so ds started playfully biting at my brothers fingers to get him to let go (it was definitely playfully, ds is not the sort of child to hurt others) and my brother slapped him across the face.

Ds was obviously very upset and had a red mark on his face. AIBU to be completely livid and feeling like I never want to see my brother again? Or should I have stepped in and made my ds apologize?

Totally unacceptable from a grown adult to hit a child, no matter what the child did to "deserve it" (no child deserves to be slapped like that).

But you definitely need to work on your sons cheekiness and refusal to apologise.

But your brother is the adult and should have more control of his behaviour than a five year old (even tho I suspect the biting was real not playful, he wasn't being hurtful, he was trying to get free)

At 5 years old this child is still learning right from wrong but OP's brother is 31 years old and should be able to control himself.

An adult hitting a small child across the face hard enough to leave a mark is utterly abhorrent, regardless of anything that child may have said or done. Even if the biting wasn't "playful" and it hurt, that still would not make it any more acceptable because we are talking about a grown man assaulting a defenceless child. No amount of provocation can justify physically abusing a 5 year old child.

OP, you are absolutely right to keep your son away from your brother in future. You need to protect him from further abuse and your DM's opinion is not relevent here.

I understanding the playfully biting thing and I've seen it before. What the kid was doing was trying to get away because the brother had no right to restrain him like a criminal just for saying fatty (no doubt kid was joking). Kid would have pretended to bite to try and get away. I feel really sorry for this kid

Children do no t know it is rude until they are told. Ds often says things that can be perceived as rude as he knows no better. We discuss that these things are rude, and that he must not say them again. Only when he has been told about it is he then being naughty for repeating it.

however, I think your brother is totally out of order slapping your child. He is supposed to be a grown up a have self control. you need to explain to your child that calling people fatty is wrong but what your brother did in response is not acceptable.

Blimey. Being a bit cheeky and not wanting to say sorry is perfectly normal for a five year old and OP has already acknowledged that and said she is working on it.

It's not like he wakes up,to some random person in the street and called them fatty. It's his uncle and I assume they have a playful relationship.

I'm not surprised he bit him to get away. He was probably frightened. And his instinct was correct wasn't it?

I'd never let him near your brother again.

A similar thing happened to my niece with her grandfather and SIL continued as if nothing had happened. The violence only got worse until eventually FIL chucked my niece in a swimming pool, fully clothed, in a rage, because she tripped over a drink he'd left on the ground. She was six. The whole family still think it was her fault. We're NC now.

just to be clear my son has bitten me through a thick winter coat hard enough to draw blood and i did not retaliate

i think hindsight is a wonderful thing and being cheeky is not always a bad thing he is five and learning boundaries learning appropriate behaviour all he has learnt is to smack when you can't get your own way

Forcing a child to say sorry when they aren't is a bit pointless anyway, it sounds forced and hollow. Explaining why they should be sorry and how it is unkind to make personal remarks is better.

It doesn't matter here though. Even if your DS did mean to bite him, tough shit. He shouldn't have been holding his hands to prevent him from getting away. I'd have hit the roof at this alone. The slap would have me reaching for the phone and reporting the cunt. What a bullying arswipe who can't take a bit of cheek from a 5 year old child! All, children test and push boundaries. Your DS sounds no different from any other child, apart from MN land where some children are labelled as horrors or anything else completely ott for usual child behaviour.

As someone else pointed out, the only people legally allowed to hit a child (without leaving a mark) is the child's own parents. Unless said parents have given express permission to certain people such as childminders, certain family members etc. I imagine you have extended no such permission.
I had a similar sort of situation with my brother. Aggressive but not violent - shouting and pointing fingers in my face. Incident reported to my mother by him and she was nasty about my child. Apparently my 7 yr old hurt the feelings of her 46 yr old child. Poor him. Ludicrous.
The situation with your brother is certainly crazy. My brother has been violent to me and I decided if it ever happened again to any of us, I would not hesitate to report it to the police.
As for apologising, it doesn't mean your child isn't sorry. It could be all sorts of reasons. My DD struggled to apologise age 5. I never pushed it because I knew she was just unable to vocalise. I see now it's hard for her perhaps for the following reasons: Frightened of being on the spot. Embarrassment. So cross with herself. Now that she's older, she tends to cry if she hurts someone's feelings and is in general better at apologising. So no, I don't think your ds should have been forced to apologise. Calling your brother fatty is no big deal. He's 5 ffs and just learning social graces.
I have had to have several words with my family for thinking they can discipline my child. I am the parent. It's not their job. Especially when I am so much better than them. Manipulative crap.

People here are so OTT about a 5 yr old being a bit cheeky. Yes if course you should tell him not to be calling people names - but children are only learning how to behave in the world.

I would not have my child around an adult who would hit him if he stepped out of line.

Fucking hell leanne! I'm not surprised you are NC now!

You are absolutely right to be completely livid and I'm glad you've decided not to expose your DS to your poor excuse for a brother any more.

I'm not too impressed by your mother either, tbh - sounds like she failed to protect you from your brother when you were a child yourself, and she would go down the same route now with her DGS given half the chance. Shameful, but that's a whole other can of worms you maybe don't want to open just now.

for you and for your DS. Who knows, maybe the whole reason your DS was acting up in this situation was because he was picking up on the tension between you and your brother and your brother's barely concealed aggression, rather than out of some terrible lack of discipline.

Um, a small child calling someone 'fatty' does not warrant a slap around the face FFS!

Your birthed is dangerous Op. Do not let your boy be near him again.

Oh Leanne your poor niece! Does she have anyone to look out for her at all?

And if the biting hurt, then maybe the brother should have let go FFS!

OP have you posted about your brother being violent to your DS before? I remember a very similar thread with the posters DS being rude and cheeky and her brother being violent. Plus posters Mum minimised what had happened to.

My son got bitten at school today, hard enough to leave a graze and teeth shaped purple bruises through his school jumper. He's 6, and still didn't retaliate as I've taught him it's wrong. He told the teacher instead and the incident (which the school are treating as very serious, as apparently the other child had two goes to get a big enough mouthful and then had to be dragged off) was dealt with by the teachers.

Your DS was incredibly rude, but your brother committed a criminal offence.

I'm going to make a point here - please don't assume that it means I am in agreement with your brother because I am not. His actions were wrong.

I grew up in a house where hitting was the primary form of discipline, and from the facts that your brother went straight to hitting and that your mum is sort of on his side, I guess it was a feature of the upbringing you and your brother shared too.

Your brother got engaged in a power struggle with a child and sort of tried to sort the issue out without hitting, albeit using restraining methods instead. It is my impression that he didn't initially intend to hit your son, but was surprised by your son biting his hands (I know exactly what sort of behaviour you mean by the way, my 5yo does the same and I have to say it fucking hurts even though it's 'playful') and went to his knee-jerk response of hitting. That was, obviously, unacceptable. However, I can understand how it happened as I have to try very very hard not to hit my son when he unexpectedly hurts me. It's my automatic response, my go-to move after growing up in a house where hitting was normal.

I should clarify that I have only ever hit my son once in his life, when he kicked me in the face at point-blank range with shoes on, and my brain just switched off and I reared back and whacked him. I felt dreadful (he didn't seem to notice it had happened, thankfully) and have never done it since, but only because I pay close attention and restrain myself. It sounds like your brother (again, UNACCEPTABLY) did not control himself. He is probably now telling himself and everyone else that your DS is at fault because it's easier on the ego to say 'naughty child for provoking me' than 'shit, I can't control my emotions and took it out on a child'.

You are very much NBU to be upset at your brother and mother. However I'd suggest that he is not a monster and that he and DS might be able to have a good relationship in the future, provided that your brother acknowledges that his own behaviour wasn't exemplary and that he should be grown-up enough to deal with the frustrations of a child. You might want to leave it a few years though. I wouldn't blame you for being wary from now on, anyway.

Some unbelievable posts here blaming the kid. He was cheeky then panicked at being restrained. This is standard 5 year old stuff. Not great but a work in progress as they learn boundaries. Your brother assaulted him and it must have been very scary for him to have an adult lose control like that.

Well done to you for not minimising this. You can break these unhealthy family patterns today. Draw a clear line and refuse to let your brother near your son today. I admire you for seeing how wrong those is despite your dm's attemors to minimise and push you back in line.

I don't read anyone blaming the child at all, who has done that? Saying he was rude and cheeky - which he was - and needs disciplined isn't blaming him at all. Everyone has said brother was in the wrong to react the way he did.

dorothea who has blamed the child?

A five year old called a grown man fatty isn't horrific, people need to get a grip saying how awful he is. In a family people tease, I bet the brother has teased the little boy, I know my youngest son teases his nephews and they will respond in a way they wouldn't to other adults.

The brother on the other hand has committed a crime. OP I understand why you don't want to go to the police but do protect your son from this vicious bully. You are not being unreasonable.

Your brother's behaviour was disgraceful. No excusing her. However, I do have to add that it sounds your kid needs better discipline. That behaviour isn't acceptable and the way you describe it sounds like you're talking about a toddler.

Yanbu op. So sorry this has happened to your child.

Your brother has physically assaulted a child. If that came to me tomorrow as a referral I would want to know exactly how you plan on safeguarding your child in future and would be advising you to call the Police.

If you had slapped him it would result in a section 47 (child protection investigation ) joint with the Police. The child would be taken to hospital for a child protection medical and photographs would be taken of the slap mark. The Police might want to interview your child and open an investight ion. This is how serious slapping a child around the face and leaving a mark can be so please bear that in mind when you make your decision about what to do about your brother. In fact the police could even do this from what your brother has done.

There will be other times to teach your child about rude comments. I would say this is not one of them as it might give him the impression that he was asking for it from your brother. I would only talk to him about how wrong what your brother did was.

If your DC had kicked him in the bollocks and called him a cunt, he still would have no right to hit a five year old!

This

"There will be other times to teach your child about rude comments. I would say this is not one of them as it might give him the impression that he was asking for it from your brother. I would only talk to him about how wrong what your brother did was"

Really good point WhatAMistake