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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Unvaccinated children around newborn

303 replies

Foldback · 14/03/2016 15:22

I don't want to clog the other post here but I wondered what peoples thoughts are.

I'm currently pregnant. My closest friend chooses not to vaccinate her children aged 2 and 6 and has done this since pregnancy, both children attend nursery. Although I wouldn't make the same decision I don't want to debate her reasoning or the pros and cons of vaccination, there has been plenty of that on the other thread.

I have tried to research the possible risks but feel I'm stumbling in the dark on google. AIBU to not allow her / her children to have contact with my DS until he is able to receive his immunisations or am I being PFB?

OP posts:
pigeonpoo · 18/03/2016 09:55

Joffrey I'm really sorry to hear about that too Thanks

It's entirely possible that vaccines are absolutely safe and beneficial when stored correctly, but if something in that process takes too long or goes wrong they become as dangerous as the things we aim to prevent with them. After all it happens with food and we accept that as possible all the time

I'd really like to see more research done on why vaccines go wrong so we could stop that and get more people vaccinating confidently

sugar21 · 18/03/2016 10:17

Joffrey Sorry to read your storyFlowers

pigeonpoo · 18/03/2016 10:28

When we talk about reactions I think it's important to distinguish between awful reactions and those within the expected realm

If your child becomes a bit poorly after a vaccine - that's actually good. They're responding to it and creating antibodies. That's not something to fear or try to avoid.

Live vaccines (MMR, BCG, Single Ms Rs) there's an incubation period as with an illness before this reaction shows up

Others it's about 12-24 hours later it shows up

It doesn't mean however that somebody can't react to a live vaccine immediately - but those reactions are not within normal range and would be things like allergies to ingredients or very unusual reactions

JoffreyBaratheon · 18/03/2016 10:30

Y0u, I doubt it ever saw the light of day. One of Blair's first actions when he got into power was to shut down the huge class action, that parents of kids with autism post MMR were undertaking. We could only fight it with Legal Aid and with the Legal Aid gone, the class action collapsed.

I am not 100% certain none of the journos at the time picked up on the cluster thing. As I say it only emerged because of the class action - no-one else had reason to listen to our stories or collate the facts and see a pattern emerge. Blair knocked it on the head (I'm a lifelong Labour member/supporter btw).

It was as a result of the lawyers collating people's stories, that this picture of the clusters emerged. It only emerged by accident. No-one was looking for it. But as they collated the info from everyone - around 2000 families IIRC and I no longer have the paperwork - they also tracked down the batch number of the vaccine for each child. There was more than one manufacturer.

As that info came back, someone somewhere realised they were starting to see the same batch numbers over and over. These were unrelated people, total strangers to eachother, who had never met, and if they were owt like me, had no idea there even were other people affected in their area, let alone from the same surgery.

As it never came to court, that never emerged so far as I'm aware.

Before the Andrew Wakefield fiasco, there was some sympathetic press and maybe someone somewhere, got hold of this. So for all I know it might have been mentioned in passing at the time.

For me, the clusters made the whole thing credible.

It is always worth raising the point that it may not even be the vaccines themselves - just something in the storage protocol. The fact the dodgy GP we hastily picked on our return from the States (because, ironically vaccination was so important to me I wanted it done fast) was later struck off, kind of adds weight to this...

After that experience I just couldn't bring myself to have my younger kids vaccinated with that particular vaccine. They had the other ones in babyhood and have had others since with no ill effects. But never MMR again because I couldn't live with myself doing that to a second child.

My disabled son left school with no GCSEs but spent 5 years getting a BTEC at college and is now at uni. We are intensely proud of him. I felt like my baby died, as he was so unrecognisable and different after the MMR - and in his case it came on that day - a fever, which I had been told to expect so didn't fuss about - followed by just endless bellowing and screaming that went on several years. He lost all his words. He was in nappies til he was 5. He was the youngest child ever statemented by the LEA and in special school's nursery by age 3. He has gone from that screaming/mute little red thing, to a lovely (if damaged) young man who against all the odds is now studying for a degree and I can never believe it when I look back and think of him on his first day waiting for the taxi to special school, in his little coat, to where he is now. All he knows is he was damaged by an injection. You can't say the word 'injection' to him. ;o) I added this last bit to give hope to anyone else with a child with autism.

I have always thought Blair ended the chance of a class action because the stuff was still stockpiled, at that time, and also a cynical way of not paying out compensation. Some families have battled alone without Legal Aid and got paid out. We can't afford to as most can't so with Wakefield discredited, and the press and public now sceptical, there is nowhere to go with this. I will always tell my son's story though, as I don't think this should be airbrushed out.

I have nothing but sympathy for people whose children have been disabled or died due to complications post measles and the other diseases. That must be unimaginably awful, and cruel. But also, I'd ask people to keep an open mind and accept that a minority of children do get vaccine damaged and a lot of the vitriol around these discussions is hurtful to someone, somewhere.

teacher1984 · 18/03/2016 10:30

Thank you for sharing your story Joffrey - I'm so sorry that your family have gone through this. Your poor son.

I wish you'd posted this information nearer the start of the thread. I'd like to see the responses of all those who've written declaring parents wary of vaccines are idiotic, selfish morons.

pigeonpoo · 18/03/2016 10:38

I wish you'd posted this information nearer the start of the thread. I'd like to see the responses of all those who've written declaring parents wary of vaccines are idiotic, selfish morons.

A wholehearted agree from me.

There's at least 2 other parents I see on MN who are frequently skimmed over with none of the empathy reserved for those who have had children harmed by illness because their children were harmed by vaccines. It may be rare, but it's not rare enough that at least 3 are on one support forum at the same time. Why can't people understand people don't selfishly or idiotically choose not to vaccinate.

Y0uCann0tBeSer10us · 18/03/2016 10:44

Another thank you from me for sharing your story Joffery. The way you've been treated is an absolute disgrace. I totally agree with previous posters who say we need to have as much sympathy for those damaged by vaccines as by disease, more acknowledgement that it does happen, and more research into trying to prevent it.

JoffreyBaratheon · 18/03/2016 10:47

teacher I hesitate now because I have always told this story whenever I got a chance, on various forums - just to keep the story out there and maybe because we feel so powerless. It's like at least I can do this one thing for him.

And then I posted on a forum I've been on for years and know a number of the members IRL, where, unknown to me, one regular had a child who was severely disabled post measles, and subsequently died. So I felt awful posting my son;s story.

I sued to post it thinking if I could change one person's mind, or just make one person pause for thought... Also I hate the vitriol pro-vaccers have, as much as the idiocy on the other side. It is thoughtless and cruel. But then, when I read about that woman's child dying (she was a friend IRL of a close friend of mine, too), I felt well what if my post persuades just one person NOT to vaccinate - and then their child had that happen? Could I live with myself?

Now I think I should post my story, people who have had the opposite experience should post their's - and hopefully everyone will be more informed. I shouldn't seek to change anyone's minds but if I could challenge the tone of some people's posts or make them realise that for every 100 hippy dippy anti vaccers, there is a family who had a 'normal' child, then didn't....

Everyone should do as they judge. The odds are clearly in favour of vaccinations generally. It's this one vaccine I worry about. There was a frightener leaflet floating about at the exact time my kids had MMR saying categorically that asthma wasn't a contraindication my husband has asthma and my mum died of asthma) and words to the effect 'Studies show that x% of children die of measles!" And it quoted some figures. A year or two later, a senior consultant paediatrician told me that she was having to contradict that NHS/government leaflet as the figures they were quoting, to scare people, were actually from a recent immigrant population in the ROI - but it was very misleading, and made it look like these people were dying left right and centre, in the average population of the UK. During the class action, the lawyers were trying to get hold of this leaflet as someone (probably a consultant!) tipped the off about it, but who keeps old leaflets from drs' surgeries? So we had no proof that misinformation was out there - they later said asthma was a contradindication - I'm not sure what they say currently as I had my last baby 14 years ago...

OP should be aware people with kids of different ages were given different info about contraindications, so many kids may well not have had certain vaccinations. She'd have no way of knowing.

We love our son as he is now, very very much and I can't even imagine him being different, now. I will tell his story as long as I can, because I owe that little boy waiting for the special school taxi, at least that much. But I hesitate to share it because I always get shot down and, ore recently, I can see how others have been devastated by not vaccinating.

Y0uCann0tBeSer10us · 18/03/2016 10:57

I for one am glad you have chosen to share your story Joffrey. I think it is important that we hear about the consequences of vaccinating as well as the consequences of not doing so. We are all unfortunately very aware of people damaged by disease via the media, but it seems that too often vaccine damage is treated as almost a myth and not worth considering. We need to be open to both, as a society, to get a true idea of the burden on both sides.

Flowers
JoffreyBaratheon · 18/03/2016 11:01
Cake I thought I'd give Y0u cake, instead of flowers. Cake is always good.
bumbleymummy · 18/03/2016 11:05

Thank you for sharing your story Joffrey. Hopefully some of the people who were being so rude earlier in the thread will realise it isn't as straightforward as they thought and will be a bit more understanding in future.

Cake for you too :)

Roonerspism · 18/03/2016 11:22

Gosh joffrey your experience and your story of your son has left me in tears. I'm delighted to hear that is progressing so well now.

There are a few cautious vaxxers on this thread and we are used to all sorts of criticism.

At the very heart of my concerns about multiple vaccines is a deep shifted idea that proper research hasn't been done. That stories like yours are ignored.

And you know what? The more that people tell me how stupid I am, the more cynical I become. The more people scream at me that clever scientists have done all sorts of research, the more I question what research that is, how it was conducted and who funded it.

Anyway, I do vaccinate my kids but I space them out more and I opted for the single measles vaccine. Mumps and rubella is currently unavailable in the UK which I believe is further bullying by the government.

Anyway, in terms of the original question. I wouldn't let any kids too near my newborn, heathy or not. I would give it a few weeks. Thereafter, I honestly wouldn't worry about vaccination status. There are many, many unvaccinated adults who present just a big a risk.

JoffreyBaratheon · 18/03/2016 11:37

Rooner, one of the courses I was doing was about medical/educational research and how flawed it can be. In the US, at that time, a drug might be accepted by the FDA when tested on a sample size of people as low as... 6.

So I knew to be sceptical about 'science' as well as about conspiracy theories. Many tub-thumpers don't realise how shaky some of the science is. Wink I'm sure it is very different now - this was the early 1990s. But I bet at the time, it was probably not dissimilar here in the UK.

I knew of one remedy - a fatty acid supplement - that some people believed, after similar sketchy 'scientific research' - to be a possible solution for kids with ADHD/dyspraxia and the like. I think it was licensed by the NHS. Some very brief research in the pre-internet days, and I realised the 'impartial' and 'scientific' research accepted by the NHS was in fact just a study funded by the same company who developed it (under a different name, as it was a sort of umbrella company).

If five minutes of my amateurish sleuthing could show that, it suggests that a lot of licensed drugs actually are accepted into the canon with sketchy science. And a lot of things people cite as scientifically sound, may in fact stem from research funded by people with a vested interest in proving it is scientifically sound.

This is what I was taught in the months before my son 'got' autism. And no looney conspiracy theories just a hard, critical look at how research papers are constructed, and how drugs and therapies and educators' approaches develop from that research.

Roonerspism · 18/03/2016 11:52

joffrey that is all very interesting. One of my issues with vaccine studies is the control group. It must be very hard to conduct any proper research in this area at all.

I often like to read up whenever the press pick up on a new study - on any subject - and I'm amazed at how often there is a flaw. Like you say, there can be dubious funding. But the control groups are flawed. Or dosage not right etc.

When I researched the MMR I found an interesting study about how the immune system responds to mumps and rubella at the same time (as diseases, not in a vaccine). I remember at that point really wondering - really questioning - combination vaccines.

I'm an intelligent woman - I won't out myself by saying what I do. But it's not scientific so of course I'm ridiculed for attempting to question science.

This amuses me now. This idea that science is fixed. That studies are perfect. That research is unchanging. And the more I read, the more I laugh when I'm ridiculed.

And I read stories such as yours. And it makes me very sad and angry that they are brushed aside. And it is this that feeds the anti-vaccine paranoia

teacher1984 · 18/03/2016 12:00

Roonerspism - would you mind sharing your vaccine schedule with me? At what age you did jabs, how they were spaced out, which ones you left out etc? I have a newborn and am taking the time to consider all options for him. Thank you

teacher1984 · 18/03/2016 12:08

Joffrey - thanks again for sharing, it must be hard. And I completely understand your upset at knowing the other side of the coin with regards serious complications of these diseases.

Do you know if the person you knew that was affected had been vaccinated against measles? One of my concerns is that vaccines quite often don't work anyway... I noticed at least 3 people on this thread remark that they contracted the illness because their vaccine protection had 'worn off' yet rather than being furious that their vaccine hadn't worked instead they are furious that they may have contracted it from someone who hadn't vaccinated in the first place. It's illogical to me! The vaccine didn't even protect you from the disease! Be furious about that instead! I've read numerous times of measles outbreaks where absolutely all children affected were vaccinated! It isn't unvaccinated children even getting the disease and 'spreading' it as so many posters on this thread are convinced of.

Y0uCann0tBeSer10us · 18/03/2016 12:15

"One of my issues with vaccine studies is the control group. It must be very hard to conduct any proper research in this area at all."

As a working research scientist I totally agree with you. The long term effects of a vaccine or combination of vaccines, such as maybe emergence of autoimmune disease, can only robustly be tested by comparing those receiving the vaccines to those without in large numbers, chosen randomly, over a long period of time, perhaps decades. This is obviously not possible if virtually all patients have been given the vaccine, and there are only a small number of controls, many of whom may have refused the vaccine because of a preexisting immune problem etc. Of course I understand the ethical implications of not vaccinating a random cohort and potentially exposing them to disease. But it does make a nonsense of the claim that there can't possibly be long term effects because 'scientists have proven x, y and z'. They can't have done. All they can do is make a judgement and hope for the best.

I'm often dismayed at the blind faith put in science to be honest. I also think there's wide spread misunderstanding of the level of data needed for a drug to be licensed. As Joffrey says the trials are often in small numbers of people (although 6 would be extreme!), and the safety and efficacy criteria are fairly crude. A drug is usually licenced subject to post-licencing surveillance (the black triangle), when side effects etc are monitored and any action taken if needed. iirc this was how the swine flu vaccine was found to be problematic. The yellow card scheme allows people to report suspected side effects, they don't need to be proven, and then the MHRA can investigate and look for patterns etc. The problem, which perhaps applies to vaccines more than other drugs, is that people often don't report side effects (thinking it's normal or 'known'), or don't make the connection to the medicine, and so a true safety profile isn't obtained.

bumbleymummy · 18/03/2016 12:19

Yes, under reporting of adverse drug reactions is a huge problem - and a well known one. Yet for some reason some people don't seem to think the same problem exists with under reporting of vaccine reactions.

teacher1984 · 18/03/2016 12:39

Exactly, I know numerous people with autoimmune conditions, myself included. Vaccines could potentially be the cause, we don't know. I also know of 2 babies who died of 'SIDS' the day after their 8 week jabs...coincidence? We will never know. 2 acquaintances ( parents of girls I knew at school) fell ill with Guillain Barre after the flu jab...this is a horrible horrible syndrome actually listed on the flu jab insert as a possible side effect. Is it worth it when the flu jab doesn't bloody work?! Three friends of mine had the flu jab and all reported the flu that winter. I on the other hand haven't had the flu in over 15 years. Why do so many on this thread believe what is pushed within the NHS is fact? Clearly it isn't.

To me, vaccine damage is much more prevalent than any of the pro-vaxxers on this thread would like to believe and it can have just as devastating consequences as the diseases they're designed to prevent.

JoffreyBaratheon · 18/03/2016 12:43

I wonder as well, what difference the mother's level of immunity makes and how that any residual immunity a child is born with, interacts with the vaccine? The majority of the kids who their families felt, were vaccine damaged by MMR, were the babies being vaccinated - an older sibling, having a booster at the same time from the same batch, was not at so much risk.

But I have often wondered this because whenever I was blood tested during pregnancy, the person giving me the results would remark that I had an unusually high level of immunity to rubella (I had that as a child, I was never vaccinated). I had a lot of pregnancies, and it was commented on more than once!

I have no idea about this but I did often wonder in the years afterwards, whether my kids therefore had some residual natural immunity to at least one element of the vaccine. I also had measles as a baby but no-one ever remarked on my immunity to that.

I distinctly remember having rubella and loving it, as I got a week in bed and had no symptoms apart from a rash on my arms, and didn't even feel ill. So I got to stay in bed, eat chocolate and read books, instead of go to school. Not minimising this disease just it seems odd that I had such a high level of immunity when I recall it as a very mild illness, at the time. And then my son had this happen.

sashh · 18/03/2016 13:08

This is where weighing up the risks gets a bit complicated, and I can see why someone would go either way on it.

A true risk assessment looks at both the likelihood of something happening and the consequences if it does happen.

Yes the chances of getting meningitis is low, but the consequences are so serious that it was/is worth developing a vaccine.

Y0uCann0tBeSer10us · 18/03/2016 13:10

"Yes the chances of getting meningitis is low, but the consequences are so serious that it was/is worth developing a vaccine."

Absolutely. I've love to see better vaccines in development, as well as all the other research described in this thread.

JoffreyBaratheon · 18/03/2016 13:11

I wonder as well, what difference the mother's level of immunity makes and how that any residual immunity a child is born with, interacts with the vaccine? The majority of the kids who their families felt, were vaccine damaged by MMR, were the babies being vaccinated - an older sibling, having a booster at the same time from the same batch, was not at so much risk.

I have often wondered this because whenever I was blood tested during pregnancy, the person giving me the results would remark that I had an unusually high level of immunity to rubella. I had that as a child, I was never vaccinated. I had a lot of pregnancies, and it was commented on more than once!

I have no idea about this but I did often wonder in the years afterwards, whether my kids therefore had some residual natural immunity to at least one element of the vaccine that somehow interacted with the vaccine, if that doesn't sound nuts. I also had measles as a baby but no-one ever remarked on my immunity to that. It was the rubella I had a high level of immunity, to.

howabout · 18/03/2016 13:13

teacher my DH has an autoimmune condition and so I am more cautious about vaccines than I otherwise would be. When my DD2 had her MMR I went with blind faith in the HV and had it done along with her DTP and an existing streaming cold. A week later she was a feverish screaming mess for 3 days before coming out with the measles rash over absolutely every part of her body. In the end she was absolutely fine but it was very scary over Christmas when the doctors were closed and it is the illest any of my 3 have ever been. She didn't have the pre-school booster as a result and I assume such a full reaction to the first dose would be sufficient anyway.

With DD3 I made sure per the current advice leaflet that she did not have any bugs before vaccination by keeping her under house arrest for a fortnight. I also had the DTP and MMR done about 3 months apart. She had no ill effects and has had her boosters.

This is only my experience though and I am not a medical professional.

Y0uCann0tBeSer10us · 18/03/2016 13:25

howabout when I spread out the 1 yr jabs I did the MMR last as I'd seen studies suggesting that the last remaining maternal antibodies to Measles have waned more at 15-18 months than at 12 months and so the vaccine response would be better. He also had a very strong reaction to the vaccine about 1.5 weeks later with very high temps for almost a week, Measles rash etc. It was pretty scary, he basically got Measles, but thankfully was OK. I hope that the stronger reaction is linked to a better immune response due to loss of residual maternal antibodies, and that he won't need another as that was pretty horrible. It makes sense to me anyway! (I know the only way to check is through a blood test and will do this when the time comes.)

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