Unvaccinated children around newborn

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I don't want to clog the other post here but I wondered what peoples thoughts are.

I'm currently pregnant. My closest friend chooses not to vaccinate her children aged 2 and 6 and has done this since pregnancy, both children attend nursery. Although I wouldn't make the same decision I don't want to debate her reasoning or the pros and cons of vaccination, there has been plenty of that on the other thread.

I have tried to research the possible risks but feel I'm stumbling in the dark on google. AIBU to not allow her / her children to have contact with my DS until he is able to receive his immunisations or am I being PFB?

Totally agree that all things being I'd rather have Kawasaki than Men B thisismypassword, but we should remember that you're more likely to get Kawasaki from the vaccine than you are to contract Men B.

This is where weighing up the risks gets a bit complicated, and I can see why someone would go either way on it.

No one actually knows what causes Kawasaki - it could be that the people who got it in the sample were already infected or already genetically predisposed to it.

I missed the part about children being more likely to get kawasaki than men b - was that also on the link?

Why should I 'wind my neck in' just because you don't agree with me? If you'd have come at it from that angle instead of 'I don't care about your kids' then maybe I would have had more sympathy.

show me where exactly I said i didn't care about anyones kids?? where? I dont need to justify my life to you, just because you dont know the specifics of my life does not give you the right to call me and others like me stupid.

It's under 'undesirable effects'.

I paid for my 3 year old to have it at the beginning of 2015. Luckily my 8 month old is one of the first on the nhs or else it would have cost me £600 in total.

All went on my credit card but it's a price I'm willing to pay to protect my children.

Y0uCann0tBeSer10us sorry ive not read your link but what is the risk of contracting meningitis compared to the risk of the vaccine? e.g. if the risk of seizures is 1:100 what is the risk of catching the disease? 1:????

I read the undesirable effects and see kawasaki listed there, just didn't see where it says that the recipient is more likely to get kawasaki than men b?

From meningitis.org:

"Over the past ten years, the incidence of MenB disease has been steadily declining and at the moment cases of disease are lower than they have been for decades. Current incidence of disease amongst the under 1s is around 22 per 100,000, reducing to 5 per 100,000 in the 1-4 age groups. The incidence of disease amongst older age groups is substantially less."

the canadian decision to go ahead with puts the risks in perspective In the case of Kawasaki disease cases were reported and the normal risk for Kawasaki disease is 1 in12000 for white children and 1 in 400 for asian children

In the original drug submission, a total of 6,427 subjects were exposed to at least one dose of Bexsero from eight studies, and 1,630 infants received a booster dose in the second year of life. Additional data were provided in response to the NOD, increasing the safety analysis to include a total of 5,853 infants and toddlers, 298 children, 1,963 adolescents and 81 adults.

"A total of 10 febrile seizures and 15 non-febrile seizures were reported in the first year of life in studies V72P12 and V72P13. Of these, only 2 febrile seizures in Bexsero subjects were reported within 2 days of vaccination. In the second year of life, among the 4 febrile seizures which were observed within two weeks of vaccination, all occurred at least one week after vaccination with Bexsero (3 cases) or routine vaccines alone (1 case).

There were 7 cases of suspected Kawasaki Disease (KD) reported, 6 cases with Bexsero subjects and 1 in subjects that were administered MenC conjugate. These few KD cases do not allow a definitive assessment of the causal relationship between Bexsero vaccination and the disease."

The risk of Kawasaki is on the link four, between 1:1,000 and 1:10,000.

To assess the comparative risk we have to do the maths ourselves.

There were 100 confirmed Men B cases in under 1s last year:

www.gov.uk/government/publications/meningococcal-disease-laboratory-confirmed-cases-in-england-and-wales - scroll down to powerpoint for summary of Meningitis epidemiology

and approximately 695000 births:
www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/livebirths/bulletins/birthsummarytablesenglandandwales/2015-07-15

which gives an approximately 1:7000 chance of Men B in the highest risk group.

For the 1-4 year group there were about 140 cases, and if we estimate approx 2,700,000 children in that age bracket, this is approx 1:19,000 chance of contracting Men B. This continues to fall as we move up the age groups.

Also worth noting that the vaccine isn't predicted to cover all strains, and that immunity is predicted to be short lived.

From JCVI pposition statement: www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/294245/JCVI_Statement_on_MenB.pdf

"The Committee concluded the best data for the strain
coverage of Bexsero® would have come from SBA activity, and 88% should be used as the
estimate of strain coverage",

" the model parameters used for infants were the
most plausible, and that variations of duration of protection in infants (set at 18 months) "

Also worth noting that Men B disease incidence has been falling quite sharply in recent years anyway (see slides in powerpoint from PHE), nothing to do with herd immunity or the vaccine, and it's quite likely it will continue to do so, although this isn't really known.

I think in all these threads we go round in circles, same data, same people (including me ) Point is you all have to make your own decision. Having watched my child die forced my decision for my other child.
Conclusion Meningitis is an evil evil BASTARD.

"There were 7 cases of suspected Kawasaki Disease (KD) reported, 6 cases with Bexsero subjects and 1 in subjects that were administered MenC conjugate. These few KD cases do not allow a definitive assessment of the causal relationship between Bexsero vaccination and the disease.""

Statistical power is a function of sample size, and the small numbers of patients for whom we have detailed safety data so far (10s of thousands) make it difficult to draw firm conclusions. It could be that Kawasaki is less of an issue than appears from early safety data. It might not. We won't know until the Bexsero program has been going for a couple of years and we have more data (the same can be said for efficacy).

I think all this discussion, interesting as it is, just goes to highlight how far from clear cut the assessment of risks and benefits are for this particular vaccine.

Meningitis is an evil evil BASTARD.

That we can all agree on.

Youcannotbeserious
please read things properly, the rates of kawaski disease i gave are in the normal population,not a vaccine risks. I should have said the japanese risk not asian risk.
The point is that they could not causally link kawaski disease to bexsero.
The rate you gave is just something that is reported as have happened after the vaccine, with no proven link.

bruffin I think there is a massive difference between "no proven link" and "no link" as proof requires a much larger data set than is currently available. I really hope that Bexsero doesn't cause Kawasaki as I wouldn't wish it on anyone, but I don't think you can say for sure unless we have much more data. I suspect we'll have to agree to disagree on this point.

Regardless of an individual choice on this, I'm glad that this is being discussed openly so that people can weigh up all of the sides of the argument. I recognise that with Bexsero it's a really hard call to make, and respect people with either view (worth it or not).

Whenever I hear these antivax arguments I thank the stars for the( fascist?) third world country I grew up in.

Polio,small pox, measles, from rampant killers and disablers, to very rare cases, thanks to immunisation programs..

No child admitted to schools without immunisation cards with full history of dates of vaccinations.

Sometimes people need strict rules and no choices...there is no medication for stupidity.

I saw the aftermath and the horror of these childhood diseases in Technicolor alongside godforsaken poverty...no NHS etc. before the programs kicked in.

Cannot believe that people are allowed a choice ...it compromises all.

A recent paper from the British Journal of General Practice on UK rates of Kawasaki.

bjgp.org/content/early/2016/02/23/bjgp16X684325.long

"A total of 110 episodes of Kawasaki disease in 109 children were identified from 3.9 million person-years observation. The incidence of Kawasaki disease was 2.8 per 100 000 person-years (95% confidence interval [CI] = 2.3 to 3.4) when aged

Thank you for those links Y0uCann0tBeSer10us I have had a quick read of them and will certainly have a more through read. I will also have a look on the DoH website etc too, although I have already had my son vaccinated as he qualified for the NHS program introduced this year so it is more out of interest than anything else.

Upthread you mention that Totally agree that all things being I'd rather have Kawasaki than Men B thisismypassword, but we should remember that you're more likely to get Kawasaki from the vaccine than you are to contract Men B.

There is no evidence of this, as you acknowledge yourself here:

difficult to draw firm conclusions. It could be that Kawasaki is less of an issue than appears from early safety data. It might not. We won't know until the Bexsero program has been going for a couple of years and we have more data.

While I respect your opinion, these are the types of statements (but we should remember that you're more likely to get Kawasaki from the vaccine than you are to contract Men B.) that are scientifically not determined and when used irresponsibly, can cause public health issues. Case in point, Andrew Wakefield.

There is currently nothing to suggest a definitive assessment of the causal relationship between Bexsero vaccination and Kawasaki. There is no concrete evidence as far as I can see to suggest that these people would not have developed Kawasaki disease anyway, or that they developed it as a result of having the vaccine.

Y0uCann0tBeSer10us

Just re-read my post and I am sorry if I sound like I am attacking you - that's not my intention - I am hoping we are having a worthwhile discussion!

Your
asian people have a far higher incidence of Kawasaki disease, you have no idea what the race of those who reported in the trial there was an incidence of kawasaki disease.

YOu came on here to scaremonger without actually putting any perspective on the figures you quoted.
As for febrile convulsions, they very rarely cause any lasting effects. Yes they are scary to watch (my ds has had over 20, dd had 4, my sister had numerous ones as well that i witnessed) but unless they have a condition like crackedphones nieces the likelyhood of any longlasting damage is extremely rare. My family's condition is probably related crackedphones genetic condition

four I totally take that point on board, and yes you are right that statement does appear to suggest a causal relationship when the data don't support that. As I've said a few times I'm not suggesting people should avoid the vaccine and I respect either decision in that regard. My intention was just to point out that weighing up the risks is sometimes far from easy (and I think Bexsero was a throw away remark which has become a monster!).

bruffin

I think I've made it very clear on this thread and others that I myself have chosen vaccinations! I most definitely did not come here to scaremonger - this whole discussion stemmed from a comment that vaccines differ in terms of safety and efficacy and that often the risk:benefit analysis is more complex that people realize. I stand by the comment that the risks of Bexsero are not negligible (although note I'm not saying that people should always avoid the vaccine), and I'm glad that there is now enough data on this thread for people to decide that for themselves.

Read a few pages but haven't had time to rtft.

However, OP, I absolutely wouldn't knowingly allow unvaccinated children around my newborn.

To be honest though I don't think I could be friends with someone who made such selfish and stupid decisions regarding their child's health and everyone else's!

The debate is endless so to answer your OP

I think you should ask your friend to explain her reasons behind not vaccinating and try to understand them as it might be more complex than her simply choosing not to. There are so many myths out there and is so much confusion. If it's a good friendship you should both be able to discuss your feelings and concerns honestly without the heated debate it becomes on forums. If you haven't already done this, of course

I know somebody who once told me her DC were unvaccinated. Actually they were, apart from the MMR (back during the scare) but she used the term unvaccinated as she thought that was the only optional one iyswim

I was very pfb with my first, and I know I will be with any more - no kids, other than my own, vaccinated or not will be round my newborn for a few weeks

This is not just catching normal childhood ailments and colds; this is potentially measles and other things that can seriously damage you child's health. No offence, your friend is a selfish moron putting her children at risk. Keep your distance.

Can I ask the people who are saying they wouldn't let unvaccinated children near their children - does this apply to other babies/toddlers too young to be vaccinated?