Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Unvaccinated children around newborn

303 replies

Foldback · 14/03/2016 15:22

I don't want to clog the other post here but I wondered what peoples thoughts are.

I'm currently pregnant. My closest friend chooses not to vaccinate her children aged 2 and 6 and has done this since pregnancy, both children attend nursery. Although I wouldn't make the same decision I don't want to debate her reasoning or the pros and cons of vaccination, there has been plenty of that on the other thread.

I have tried to research the possible risks but feel I'm stumbling in the dark on google. AIBU to not allow her / her children to have contact with my DS until he is able to receive his immunisations or am I being PFB?

OP posts:
MrsDeVere · 17/03/2016 21:16

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

pigeonpoo · 17/03/2016 21:21

I think it's daft on one hand to keep children away from those you know to be unvaccinated as there are so many other potential carriers of disease than children

And they will likely play at school or nursery with unvaccinated children for long periods of their life and you will have no idea of anyone's vax status - most people don't advertise it, especially people who don't vaccinate as people who don't empathise with their reasoning can get very hostile

But, I can understand some people use the logic that they can't stop what they don't know, but can do something about it if they do.

I expect some people claim they've vaccinated when they haven't and claim they haven't when they have even tbh

bumbleymummy · 17/03/2016 21:23

Well if we take measles as an example - the child isn't vaccinated until 12 months+, they could be attending lots of baby groups, sharing toys, chewing/sucking on things etc.

peggyundercrackers · 18/03/2016 07:48

Bumble that's what I was just thinking - kids don't get mmr until they are 12 months old so anyone under that age is unvaccinated for those diseases. Do all kids under 12 months avoid everyone? No...

MrsDeVere · 18/03/2016 08:18

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Y0uCann0tBeSer10us · 18/03/2016 08:30

I think it's perfectly reasonable and indeed sensible to limit a newborn's exposure to other people to prevent disease, I think that's what midwives will advise anyway, but I don't make any particular distinction between vaccinated children or not. Being unvaccinated doesn't in itself make you teeming with disease. There are also plenty of unvaccinated adults who could pass things on and plenty of other bugs that even fully vaccinated kids carry that could be a danger to a newborn. Also up to 1 in 20 vaccinated kids won't be immune to whatever disease anyway because of vaccine limitations, prophylactic paracetamol etc. I made sure anyone who looked even slightly peaky was kept away!

bumbleymummy · 18/03/2016 08:42

MrsDV, I haven't said that I don't understand it. If people want to keep their children away from unvaccinated children then that's their choice. I just think it's unlikely that they're also going to avoid all baby groups even though there will be plenty of unvaccinated/partially vaccinated children there too.

KERALA1 · 18/03/2016 08:45

Also the under 1s are less mobile and more containable than a boisterous toddler. If I knew a family hadn't vaccinated and had kids of varying ages all keen to meet my newborn yes the risk would cross my mind in a way it wouldn't interacting with other under 1s. Much easier to keep a newborn away from a fellow under 1 baby than a curious 2 year old.

TinySombrero · 18/03/2016 08:58

My child at toddlers at 10 months watched from the safety of my knee mostly (and didn't catch stuff until "mucking in" at present school nursery)

At that same time I did avoid spending weekends with our unvaccinated ( MMR) school age cousins, who would have wanted close contact over a period of days. My logic is fine.

Plus I live in a part of the country where MMR rates stayed high, cousins didn't

Foldback · 18/03/2016 08:58

pigeon we have had many conversations about this she is quite open and almost evangelical about the fact that neither of her children have received any vaccinations and she also declined them during pregnancy. There is no medical reason for this. She is very much a follower of 'attachment parenting' (although of course I'm not saying the two are mutually exclusive her children her choice) her reasons for not vaccinating vary from concerns about reactions / not trusting big pharma / believing that vaccines are ineffective / her 'D'H concerns that there is a government conspiracy Confused. She is an educated, sensible woman in all other aspect and is a very good friend, she finds it equally bizarre I would allow a child to receive vaccines. We have had to agree to disagree on this subject.

I agree that it is impossible to avoid all unvacc children and adults, but knowing she has made this fucking bizarre choice I feel it would be irresponsible of me to allow her children, who attend nursery, to slobber over a newborn who hasn't received vaccines regardless of whether I BF or not.

OP posts:
bruffin · 18/03/2016 09:05

There is a lot of research on prophylatic paracetamol and it does not necessarily immune response.
Ie for Menb there is no affect, which is why the recommendation is give calpol with the vaccine
For other vaccines they found that given calpol routinely with the vaccine did affect immune response,but giving calpol once fever started didnt affect immune response.
One set of researchers who had previously said that prophylactic calpol affected immune response actual withdrew that after later studies.

Y0uCann0tBeSer10us · 18/03/2016 09:07

"I agree that it is impossible to avoid all unvacc children and adults, but knowing she has made this fucking bizarre choice I feel it would be irresponsible of me to allow her children, who attend nursery, to slobber over a newborn who hasn't received vaccines regardless of whether I BF or not."

Your baby, your choice. Your first responsibility is to do what you believe is best for your child. I wouldn't let any nursery-age child to slobber over a newborn, vaccinated or not. My ds is at nursery and there seems to always be something going around!

bumbleymummy · 18/03/2016 09:10

"I wouldn't let any nursery-age child to slobber over a newborn, vaccinated or not. "

Yes to this!

Y0uCann0tBeSer10us · 18/03/2016 09:11

On prophylactic paracetamol, the latest data seem to confirm that it does reduce immune responses, but overall the level of protection is still considered generally good enough. From the Oct 2015 JCVI minutes:

"PHE presented a paper which reviewed the recent literature on antipyretics and post-vaccination fever. A systematic review published in 2014 assessed the effect of prophylactic antipyretic administration on post-vaccination adverse reactions in children and found that paracetamol significantly reduced rates of fever and had additional benefits such as reducing pain of all grades1 . A key finding was that statistically significant decreases in anti-pneumococcal, anti-PRP, anti-diphtheria, antitetanus, anti-pertactin antibody responses were observed in infants receiving prophylactic paracetamol."

app.box.com/s/iddfb4ppwkmtjusir2tc/1/2199012147/46319285265/1

boredofusername · 18/03/2016 09:14

On prophylactic paracetamol, the latest data seem to confirm that it does reduce immune responses, but overall the level of protection is still considered generally good enough

I'm glad to hear that because I definitely gave it to ds before his vaccinations and had not even heard that it might not be a good idea!

He had a reaction after the MMR anyway but maybe it would have been worse without.

For those of you who are interested (and have a subscription) there was a very powerful article in the Times the other day about polio vaccination in India. The article said that one woman said that she would allow her child to be vaccinated against polio but then she'd have to kill her child because if she didn't, her husband would kill her. That's the sort of opposition they've had to fight against. But polio has more or less been eradicated in India now.

bruffin · 18/03/2016 09:19

So why did you bother mentioning it in the first place if the effect is minimalHmm

However the research on Menb shows there is no effect on immune response.

MrsDeVere · 18/03/2016 09:21

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

bumbleymummy · 18/03/2016 09:24

Yes, Bruffin, YouCan has pointed that out previously. It's stated in the JCVI report as well.

Think what you like MrsDV. You will anyway.

Y0uCann0tBeSer10us · 18/03/2016 09:25

boredofusername as I understand the advice, while the average effect on immunity is generally small, the more response you can get the better, so on an individual level it's better not to give paracetamol prophylactically if you can help it. Obviously with Bexsero it's recommended because on weighing up all the risks, the fever risk is greater than the reduction in responses, which is why prophylactic paracetamol is only recommended with these.

When you say he had an MMR reaction, was that only MMR or did he have PCV and Hib/MenC too? Side effects from MMR usually come out 1.5-2 weeks afterwards once the viruses have had a chance to incubate, whereas I think immediate reactions are more likely to be the others. My ds had them on a spread out schedule, so we know which ones were most reactive, and PCV made him a bit poorly immediately afterwards, but with MMR we didn't see anything until a week and a half later (and then sadly he had quite a hard time, poor soul Sad )

Y0uCann0tBeSer10us · 18/03/2016 09:30

bruffin yes, the research on Men B seemed to show that there was no effect on Men B response.

Research on other vaccine responses has shown consistently that response was lowered in response to prophylactic paracetamol. While there is a threshold that is generally set for 'good enough' it's generally accepted that the more response you have the better, which is why prophylactic paracetamol isn't recommended in cases where Bexsero isn't given.

pigeonpoo · 18/03/2016 09:30

I understand OP

I used to be her... (Well think similar anyhow)

But digging a lot deeper changed my mind. So I would hold out hope for your friendship in the end, but in the meantime not push her into feeling the need to defend her position. I would leave the mention of vaccine status out of it when saying you don't want your baby around her DC and I'd just shrug it off on being pfb myself and leave the onus on her to prove to you why her kids are safe to be around yours rather than you give reasons why not.

Since my digging my DS is actually vaccinated against more diseases than the NHS schedule, but the way, when and how I have vaccinated is very different to the usual schedule. Ironic that I'm still labelled anti-vax for doing so. She may yet change her mind if discussion is kept open, you can hope anyway! Even engaging in it with genuine facts and research can be helpful as long as you don't belittle the fact she genuinely believes she is doing the best thing for her children. But with a newborn you'll have other things to be busy with of course and it might be enough to say ok and no thanks to each other about meeting up

I had always decided that if DS wasn't vaccinated I would home school and we kept away from other children and pregnant women because I was hyper aware of risks. So incredibly pfb. He'd been vaccinated beyond other kids his age by the time he attended nursery. Grin

JoffreyBaratheon · 18/03/2016 09:36

I'm in my early 50s and am guessing many of the people I met as a newborn were unvaccinated. My dad told me I had measles at 6 months. In my late 20s, I was training to be a teacher and caught chicken pox from one of the kids in my teaching practice class, when I was about 10 or 11 weeks pregnant. I had a devastating miscarriage. So I have reason not to be anti vaccines. At that tie there was no research or not much on the effects of chicken pox on pregnant women. I know beause a Dr pulled me aside, and wanted to ask me about it, when the subject came up during a standard baby health clinic visit with my oldest son (who had been a non identical twin and survived the miscarriage of his twin). He said he was interested in researching this - not much had been done about it, then. Many people didn't even know chicken pox could be dangerous to pregnant women and even my 'anecdotal' info was interesting.

My older kids are vaccinated. I was studying Early Childhood for a Masters degree in the US when my first kids were a toddler and a newborn, and as the US had a slightly different schedule for MMR, second son didn't get his til slightly later than they normally do it, when we returned to England. He was a normal baby. We know because I was the only student on y course with a baby (He was 1 when we left), so we ran every single standardised test of cognitive and other kinds of development, on him. In other words, he was more heavily tested than pretty well any baby on the planet. He spoke 5 words.

Back in England, with my belief in 'herd immunity' etc, I took them for the MMR. Within hours, son 2 was a screaming wreck. He continued screaming - til he was 4. And lost all his language overnight. Quite ironic that I'd been studying Psycholinguisics at what was at that time the foremost university for the subject in the US and my son had been the guinea pig for every grad student's standardised testing data so we could categorically say he had been 'normal' developmentally before the MMR (late onset autism was by the way, so rare before the vaccine that most doctors never saw it in their lifetimes). Now it is the commonest form.

I was later told by someone who had seen statements from around 2000 families affected by MMR that my son's was the clearest cut trajectory they ever saw.

We all know the story of how the research was flawed and discredited. I have no opinion either way on it but suspect an etiology may one day be found.

None of my three younger sons are vaccinated but I'm not anti vaccinations as such, just that one. 15 year old wants the vaccinations they were recently doing at his school and I am taking him to the GP for them with no qualms.

Family member of mine is having a baby soon and I'd fully understand if she didn't want my germificated kids near it. That would be her choice. Just as it was my choice not to risk that again.

The batch of vaccine my son had was traced. Half a dozen other kids developed some form of autism after they went to that same surgery to have that same vaccination. This was later called a 'cluster'. Many of the kids damaged were in batch clusters - that info has almost never been released except by parents made aware at the time, no doubt). I know one of the clusters was a fairly high number.
So I have often thought it might have been something in the storage protocol, as only certain batches were affected. Interestingly, the doctor's practice we had our sons vaccinated at, the main GP there was struck off a couple of years after - not for this, because the government had stockpiled this stuff and had to use it - but something else. But that does point to her being less than competent.

I don't really want to get involved in a bunfight and TBH I have heard anything anyone could have to say over the last 20 years.

But I try not to miss a chance to get this info out there. As single vaccines, I'm certain the constituent parts of MMR pose no more threat than any other vaccine. But I will admit I didn't get my younger sons vaccinated with the single vaccines as I simply couldn't afford it.

exLtEveDallas · 18/03/2016 09:37

I noticed the loons came out when MNHQ posted this on their FB yesterday. There were some bloody ridiculous comments on there - including one that said Measles was no worse than a cold Shock You can't educate some people.

I've lost count the amount of vaccs that I have had, even the ones that made me completely and utterly dog sick (Anthrax Sad). DD has had them all, including ones I've had to pay for.

For me the choice is simple - the shame and regret I would feel, and the illness and pain DD would go through, if DD contracted a disease that I could have vaccinated against outweighs the possible side effects. I feel desperately sorry for any parent and child that cannot be vaccinated and feel it is my 'duty' as a fellow human being to vaccinate and hope they are protected by herd immunity.

After seeing (in Iraq) a village that was decimated of children following a measles outbreak, and fighting to get MSF into the village and outlying areas to vaccinate the remaining women and children, it strengthened my resolve and made me ever grateful to have been born in a country where vaccines are readily available.

Y0uCann0tBeSer10us · 18/03/2016 09:40

Joffrey I'm so sorry to hear about your son. Sad

You're right in that these clusters of vaccine damage aren't well known. Do you know if there are any reports written about them?

Caprinihahahaha · 18/03/2016 09:47

My DD is unvaccinated. I tell everyone that needs to know - her two nurserys and two schools were informed. I told the parents of the two or three new babies that came to our house over the years so they could have agreed to keep her away if they wanted but it was moot . She doesn't give a shit about babies and finds them utterly boring.

It's a personal topic to many and there are often personal tragedies at the heart of strong emotions which is understandable. There are however some people who chose to be combative and rude just because they enjoy a fight and this particular fight allows them to enjoy a frenzy of righteous indignation.

Those people are just really unpleasant.

Swipe left for the next trending thread