To ask that people consider giving up leather?

[Breadandwine]

I’ve been a vegan for 13 years. My concerns are animal welfare and global warming, plus I feel it's good for my health.

With regard to animal welfare, I have issues with every aspect of animal husbandry - but I have to be honest, until now, I haven’t given much thought to leather. I avoid it, certainly - it took several years of delicate negotiations before I persuaded my wife to accept a faux leather suite instead of the leather one she wanted - but I’ve always thought leather to be a by-product of the dairy industry.

Not so. An article by Lucy Siegle in this morning’s Observer Magazine brought me up short.

Leather production seems to be worse than other forms of animal cruelty in that humans are suffering too:

"Finally the animals are skinned (in front of each other) in the back streets of Dhaka. The skins are processed in makeshift tanneries with workers, including children, knee deep in toxic chemicals."

I've collected eggs from henhouses when I volunteered at a local farm project. The hens do not want their eggs taken, I had my hand pecked enough times to absorb that message! It does visibly agitate them.

I stopped eating eggs after the woman in charge of the hens at the farm died of ovarian cancer. I googled and found lots of links between egg consumption and ovarian cancer (and egg laying and ovarian cancer in hens). I don't care enough for eggs for the risk to be worth it.

Exactly why it's good to know the source of the eggs. Why were you instructed to take eggs from a nesting hen? Hens lay eggs, you can't actually stop them! At least I can't. I currently have a broody hen on the table on the farm house veranda which is where we usually eat. Why she picked there I don't know. I take food and water to them and have a few that will not leave their eggs, so I put it within reach. They ususlly peck like crazy when they see the food as they are ravanous, so I've been pecked a few times before I let go of whatever it was I was giving them. They usually associate human hands with food so I don't know if you can anthropomorphize the reason. They are probably just protecting themselves rather than thinking about their eggs, I've only ever been pecked when my hand and their food were in close proximity and I have removed weak chicks from under a hens (don't be alarmed it's to prevent them being trampled by their siblings and give them a chance to get stronger) and I have never been pecked, if they don't like you taking their eggs then taking their chicks would not be fair game because they are great and very protective mothers.

Too much of anything, even good things, is usually bad for you. I have a lower risk of cancer by living in Brazil than the UK, even skin cancer, so I'll take my chances with the eggs.

curren, I'm wondering about the basis for your unfavourable opinions of vegans

may be you need to read the thread. I don't have an favourable view of vegans. I have got the great lengths to point out in my posts that ALL vegans are not like this. I don't have an issue with vegans. I have also pointed that many groups that follow a certain style of eating are the same. Their way is right, yours is wrong even when they are contradicting their own arguments.

I have no problems with vegans wanting make people aware of things an asking people and wanting to have a discussion about it. I even pointed out that I don't have an issue with the OP and didn't feel he was wrong in asking people to consider giving up leather.

I have a problem with people that are rude and nasty to people who don't do the same as them. I have a problem with people that assume because you don't do what they do, you don't give a fuck about animals or the planet and are a 'murderer' or are killing my children. I also have a problem with people who like to have a dig at people about their lifestyle, but don't realise their lifestyle is hypocritical.

I pointed out that the issues I have come across with some vegans does not apply ALL vegans and does apply to SOME people from all different groups.

I actually thinking having 1.2 people a year goading your customers because of their menu choice is a high number. No I didn't have anyone else standing and making a scene and being nasty to all those customers around them. Difficult customers yes. Not customers that had to be taken out.

I have clarified the piss poor argument. That a lot of the vegans that I know that bitch about what people eat, generally tend to eat lots of imported food, out of season food, super foods that come from all over the world. Some don't even look into the way their products are farmed.

Again (just for you) my family goes to great lengths to eat locally. We grow a lot of our own veg. Where we can we buy most of our food from local farms. It's impossible to do it all the time. But I eat meat that's ethical sources. I know the farmers and know the welfare of the animals. I research food we buy and think about the impact.

Again as I said I wear a 30 year old leather jacket. I think it's better for the environment to wear that, rather than buy lots of cheap non leather jackets that would have had to have been replaced.

If you are going to ask questions and challenger their opinions I suggests to read the entire thread. At no point I have I said anything about ALL vegans or that I view vegans as one homogeneous group.

curren
may be you need to read the thread. I don't have an favourable view of vegans. I have got the great lengths to point out in my posts that ALL vegans are not like this. I don't have an issue with vegans.

Your assumption that I haven't read the thread is incorrect. Your comments don't come across as neutral to me. Whilst you do include a few remarks about vegans who might not have an agenda, the overall weight of your opinion, to me, comes across as unfavourable, especially when you combine strong criticisms with references to 'plenty of vegans' or 'a lot of the vegans I know' e.g.:

I don't know any black/gay people who are nasty and make people feel like shit and evil for not being black or gay.

I have come across plenty of vegans that do. Usually with piss poor arguments that don't add up and with insight into how awhile their choices are for the planet.

I have clarified the piss poor argument. That a lot of the vegans that I know that bitch about what people eat, generally tend to eat lots of imported food, out of season food, super foods that come from all over the world.

I'd still be interested to know whether, in relation to the fitness industry, you are talking about dietary vegans, ethical vegans, or a mix of both.

Fascile

Where did I put all or most vegans?

I can't change how you read my posts? That's fact. If you are inferring a tone, that's of your own making.

You have read the thread but just picked out the bits that suit the time you think my posts have?

My reference to black/gay people was in response to someone who compared vegans to black or gay people.

I do come across plenty of vegans with piss poor arguments. Never said all or most vegans. I haven't met all or most vegans.

I have said plenty of times there are different reasons for being vegan. I am talking about a mix of people.

You have missed the bit where I welcomed this sort of debate. Where I said

I don't see the issue with asking people to consider it.

I do agree with the OP, in a way. I have considered it. I will still wear leather

Everything you have quoted has been in response to someone else. Some one asked about all these vegans that try and convert people and asked for examples. I have examples of people I have come across.

I didn't just randomly post about horrible vegans I have met.

At no point have I said All vegans do this, or ALL vegans do anything. My opinion on vegans is purely 'meh, do what you want'

My opinion on people who are rude to others and try and push their way of life on to others (wether it's veganism or religion) is that you better be able to back yourself up with a decent debate.

If someone wants to discuss and debate with me. Great.

Don't be sanctimonious.

I wasn't going to come back to you curren - life's too short, at the end of the day. But I'm afraid I have to agree with fasciscle.

Your comments don't come across as neutral to me. Whilst you do include a few remarks about vegans who might not have an agenda, the overall weight of your opinion, to me, comes across as unfavourable, especially when you combine strong criticisms with references to 'plenty of vegans' or 'a lot of the vegans I know'

You also come across as quite prickly - perhaps something you can work on? Witness the posts decrying my lack of responses a couple of times.

To take one example - 25 minutes after you made a couple of points, you were asking why I hadn't responded yet. Impatient, or what?

One more thing - you accuse fascicle of being sanctimonious - but I've searched her posts and can find nothing to warrant such description.

To take one example - 25 minutes after you made a couple of points, you were asking why I hadn't responded yet. Impatient, or what?

Impatient proves what exactly? That I have a problem with vegans?

Actually I asked if you were going to answer, because you kept coming back to thread answering questions about biscuit and wine. Rather than answering anybody.

One more thing - you accuse fascicle of being sanctimonious - but I've searched her posts and can find nothing to warrant such description.

And that would be in your opinion. Not mine. I posted my opinion.

curren
If someone wants to discuss and debate with me. Great.

Which is what I was doing in asking for the basis of your opinions on vegans. You don't have to say 'all vegans' to indicate a strength of feeling/expectations about vegans in general - talking about 'plenty of vegans' or 'most of the vegans I know' combined with your choice of language ('piss poor arguments'; 'a lot of the vegans that I know that bitch about what people eat') means that your opinions do not come across as neutral or 'meh, do what you want'.

Thanks Breadandwine.