To ask that people consider giving up leather?

[Breadandwine]

I’ve been a vegan for 13 years. My concerns are animal welfare and global warming, plus I feel it's good for my health.

With regard to animal welfare, I have issues with every aspect of animal husbandry - but I have to be honest, until now, I haven’t given much thought to leather. I avoid it, certainly - it took several years of delicate negotiations before I persuaded my wife to accept a faux leather suite instead of the leather one she wanted - but I’ve always thought leather to be a by-product of the dairy industry.

Not so. An article by Lucy Siegle in this morning’s Observer Magazine brought me up short.

Leather production seems to be worse than other forms of animal cruelty in that humans are suffering too:

"Finally the animals are skinned (in front of each other) in the back streets of Dhaka. The skins are processed in makeshift tanneries with workers, including children, knee deep in toxic chemicals."

MartinaJ what age group roughly are the preachy vegans you know?

"Protected as a belief Cote, not a religion. But I think you knew that really."

Nice try but as you can see in this document that Government's Equalities Office has kindly provided for the express purpose of preventing such hijacking:

The Equality Act protects people from discrimination because of religion or religious or philosophical belief. To be protected, a person must belong to a religion that has a clear structure and belief system. Denominations or sects within a religion can be considered a protected religion or religious belief, for instance Protestants and Catholics within Christianity.

In short, the Equalities Act protects (1) against discrimination (NOT just being made fun of) (2) for religious belief or its lack thereof (NOT any old ridiculous belief like Gwyneth Paltrow's belief that steaming her vagina is a good thing).

Therefore imho it doesn't apply to vegans because veganism isn't a religion (but fascicle might disagree ). Neither is vegetarianism.

And it doesn't apply to taking the mickey out of the sillier aspects of it (like, as is sometimes said, "Humans are not made to digest meat. Meat rots in the colon") as long as you don't actually discriminate against vegans (e.g. refuse them access to services, not hire them, etc).

Isn't the usual reason for being vegan wanting to stop financing something they believe is unethical?

Honestly. For a lot it is. For a lot it's something to say about themseleves and a poor opportunity to look down on others.

In owned a restaurant for five years in that time we had 6 different vegans come in (we did a large vegetarian and vegan option menu) and end up with arguments with staff or other people who dared eat meat on the next table. Usually starting with passive aggressive and loud comments and when ignored got louder. When we stepped in it would result in a massive scene. One even threaten to smash the windows when we locked up for being a 'house of murder'

Why enter somewhere that has 'steak house' in its name of you don't want to finance people not acting in what you think is an ethical way?

We probably had many vegans who just came in and ate without issue.

People I meet through work usually start with ' I can't sit here while you eat that poor animal' (response is usually 'well sit somewhere else' ) or 'how can you eat flesh' or 'do you know what damage you are causing the planet by eating meat' while sat eating their superfoods salad that's entirely grown outside the UK and transported in.

Then it usually goes into an in depth description of something they saw in Facebook and presenting it as fact.

Usually these are the ones that don't want to discuss their impact on the planet. Because they haven't thought of that.

Some try and tell you how bad it is for your health, I have been asked 'do you know you are killing you and your children by eating meat'

I would never approach a vegan and tell them what they should or shouldn't do.

I work in the fitness industry, there is a definite 'them and us' culture depending on which eating plan to do. You have the 'must eat 5 meals a day', the iifym crowd, the no carb crowd, the IF crowd etc

All vegans do not eat ethically in my opinion. But a lot of them spend so much time being concerned with what other are eating they don't think about the impact of their food.

Of course other groups do similar. But this discussion is about vegans.

And yes cross fitters are just as bad!

Cote, you do realise that meat-eaters say equally stupid things, right?

'We need animal protein to survive!'
We don't, actually. We just need a full complement of essential amino acids, and these tend to all be present in meat/dairy. It's a bit more hit and miss in plant-based produce but if you eat a variety then you're fine.

'Animals are here for us to eat.'
No, the poor bastards happened to evolve on the same planet as us and are smaller than us, so got eaten when we felt hungry. Thousands of years on it's now a habit rather than a necessity to eat flesh - we can acquire everything we need to sustain life from other sources than animal bodies.

'If you can't abstain from all animal-derived products then you might as well not bother.'
See my posts above about the benefits of at least making an effort.

Sure, and I defend your right to take the mickey out of meat-eaters. You might be wrong, but nobody can tell you that you are not allowed to say they are wrong or ridicule them (if you can).

I am certainly not going to say the belief that eating meat is good for us makes one protected under the 2010 Equalities Act. (I'm still laughing at that one )

"We need animal protein to survive!'"
We don't, actually. We just need a full complement of essential amino acids, and these tend to all be present in meat/dairy. It's a bit more hit and miss in plant-based produce but if you eat a variety then you're fine."

Unfortunately for that theory, there is something called Vitamin B12 which you can't get from anything but animals. You indeed need B12 to survive, because its low levels cause anaemia and nervous system damage in the long run (1-5 years).

Don't believe me? Read what Vegan Society says on the matter.

If you are not eating any animal products, you must make sure you take B12 supplements and/or eat cereals etc that are artificially loaded with B12.

Yes, I do take a B12 supplement. AFAIK the B12 within it is concentrated from non-animal sources.

Yeast is the source of vegan B12. Dont tell vegans that wont eat yeast.

I used to work in a vegan wholefood collective. I used to be a vegan, for over 8 years. I didnt tell people unless I had to and I was never bothered about other peoples choices.
I stopped being a vegan for a number of reasons, Including health issues during pregnancy and breastfeeding, not wanting to be associated with sanctimonious vegans, and being more concerned about human rights and ethics than other vegans.
I grew up on a farm. Eventually I realised being vegetarian or vegan went against my fundamental beliefs about being human. So I started from scratch and worked out a new life philosophy about living ethically and naturally.

What, so in a scenario where you met a bunch of prostalysing gay people or a bunch of militant Catholics who tried to convert you then all of a sudden it would be OK to take the piss out of all gay and catholic / religious people? Nice.

Proselytising gays??! Can't say I ever met any of them.

I didn't say its ok to take the piss out of all vegans, I said its generally considered socially acceptable. But I do think its ok to take the piss out of people that proselytise, not all vegans do and I wouldn't take the piss out of someone who doesn't but someone who tries to convert others or acts self-righteous about it, or criticises people for eating meat, then I will take the piss out of them.

CoteDAzur
Therefore imho it doesn't apply to vegans because veganism isn't a religion (but fascicle might disagree ). Neither is vegetarianism.

Religion or belief, Cote. Veganism and vegetarianism are beliefs.

From the same document/paragraph from which you quoted, here's the pertinent part you omitted:

A philosophical belief must satisfy various criteria, including that it is a belief about a weighty and substantial aspect of human life and behaviour – so, for example, humanism is a philosophical belief.

www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/85027/vcs-religion-belief.pdf

However you try to wiggle it around fascicle, *vegans are just people who don't eat animal products". Nothing more, nothing less. Some are vegan because they don't want to hurt animals, others because they think it's good for their own bodies, some both.

Philosophical: Relating to the study of the fundamental nature of knowledge, reality, and existence.

Definition of vegan

A person who does not eat or use animal products.

There is no one reason that people become vegans.

As I said I know loads whose eating babies have far more impact on the planet that I do.

You know people who eat babies curren?

Auto-correct strikes again

I'm guessing that was supposed to be "eating habits" and not "eating babies".

To be fair, eating babies would have rather a large impact on the planet.

I believe some philosophers have pointed out it may be more ethically justified to eat a newborn baby than many mammals (Peter Singer, etc). I may be paraphrasing...

He also said newborn babies are not self-aware so can ethically be killed if they are disabled, for example.

CoteDAzur
However you try to wiggle it around fascicle, *vegans are just people who don't eat animal products". Nothing more, nothing less.

Where do you get your definitions/information from, Cote? Whilst people may well opt to eat a vegan diet for health reasons rather than animal welfare reasons, the definition of veganism goes beyond diet.

From the Vegan Society:

Veganism is a way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose.

That's a shortened version of the 1979 definition further down the page which starts off with A philosophy and way of living....

www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/definition-veganism

You know people who eat babies curren?

No, I don't. To fatty for body builders

Wow what a typo!

Whatever people consider 'veganism' to be if someone is going to talk to me like twat, they will get the same back.

Jehovahs witnesses often some to the door. They however are always polite. Having studied theology, it's an interesting debate. I enjoy listening to their point of view. While I don't agree they listen to my points. Never anyone treating anyone badly.

If a JW came to the door and talked to me like some Vegans have in the past, they would get a the same back.

I have a very good friend who is vegan. It's not an issue as neither push an agenda.

Whatever you 'are' be it and crack on. But when you start being a twat to other people you do deserve it back.

Do vegans eat eggs if they have their own chickens, or is that considered cruel as well? Only we have a vegan coming to stay in July and while we eat a lot of vegan friendly food like veggies, salad, rice, pulses, corn and cassava. We also have no access to any fancy milks or processed corn/soy/whatever products. Not within a 500 mile radius.

We have lots of chickens and guinnea fowl. I was thinking she would just live off rice, pulses, fruit and veggies (we almost do anyway) as one of the children is vegetarian and we don't like to eat too much meat. But we do drink milk and eat eggs and cheese. I will wait and see when she gets here if she will stick with vegan when she can get the milk from the field (boiled before drunk obviously), we make our own cheese and eggs from the yard. Our wine is also vegan approved so failing to feed her adequatly maybe she can just drink instead!

Cote

"The same document/paragraph from which you quoted, here's the pertinent part you omitted:

A philosophical belief must satisfy various criteria, including that it is a belief about a weighty and substantial aspect of human life and behaviour – so, for example, humanism is a philosophical belief."

I'd say veganism would qualify under that, but even IF it didn't, why the interest in so vehemently defending your right to be nasty to a certain group (or maybe groups if it's not just vegans) of the population? I mean, isn't it a bit odd that you should be we should be so interested in determining just how nasty you we can get away with being without repercussions?

tomatoIzzy it's a personal preference - I would be happy eating eggs from domestic hens as I know they have been well-looked after and have happy lives (as far as one can discern this wrt chickens). Dairy is a bit more of a fuzzy one but logically it would fit the model as for chickens. However I know lots of vegans who'd hate the idea of eating any animal products in any way at all, so you might do well to email and ask before she arrives. She could always bring a sack of cashews/oats and blend her own cashew/oat milk if truly determined to avoid dairy!

Natsku

No, I don't think they exist!! Very unlikely hey pothetical scenario only :-)

Ok, your position makes more sense now, if (as I interpret it) it is a defence against being converted....

Though I think if someone tried to convert me I'd just laugh it off. Maybe I've just learned to do that from once living close to some very dodgy scientologists!!

^ fucking autocorrect!

Hypothetical!