To ask that people consider giving up leather?

[Breadandwine]

I’ve been a vegan for 13 years. My concerns are animal welfare and global warming, plus I feel it's good for my health.

With regard to animal welfare, I have issues with every aspect of animal husbandry - but I have to be honest, until now, I haven’t given much thought to leather. I avoid it, certainly - it took several years of delicate negotiations before I persuaded my wife to accept a faux leather suite instead of the leather one she wanted - but I’ve always thought leather to be a by-product of the dairy industry.

Not so. An article by Lucy Siegle in this morning’s Observer Magazine brought me up short.

Leather production seems to be worse than other forms of animal cruelty in that humans are suffering too:

"Finally the animals are skinned (in front of each other) in the back streets of Dhaka. The skins are processed in makeshift tanneries with workers, including children, knee deep in toxic chemicals."

Curren

Sounds like you've met a lot of dickheads!

Very, odd that you have vegans coming into a steak house and then complaining / irritating other customers because there is meat there, what twats!

Regarding financing something you disagree with, after googling, I see that there are two totally vegan shops in the UK (that my quick google search could find) plus a handful of totally vegan restaurants. Therefore I think we can assume that every vegan is forced to finance something with which they disagree..... However I'd assume that for ethical vegans there would be a limit, such as not going in to a steak house or McDonalds or KFC?

And on carbon footprint / flying foods in from abroad, I'm afraid that if people assume they're creating a lower carbon footprint by buying supermarket stuff labelled UK origin / Grown in the UK/ Produced in the UK etc they may well be wrong as depending on the exact wording, the produce could still have been sent half way around the world at some point in the process.... So unless you're buying from a local farm or growing yourself there's pretty much no way of reducing it very much.

Cote

"Unfortunately for that theory, there is something called Vitamin B12 which you can't get from anything but animals. You indeed need B12 to survive, because its low levels cause anaemia and nervous system damage in the long run (1-5 years)."

Nope, you can't (or probably can't, though I think it's still debated somewhat) get it in sufficient quantities from vegan sources. It's usually taken from vegan sources and concentrated to fortify foods or for vitamin tablets.

But actually, who cares!! We have the technology to provide a diet which some people see as ethically preferable, why not use it!? (Please don't roll out the good old dentition argument next, because I feel the same way about that one!)

And on carbon footprint / flying foods in from abroad, I'm afraid that if people assume they're creating a lower carbon footprint by buying supermarket stuff labelled UK origin / Grown in the UK/ Produced in the UK etc they may well be wrong as depending on the exact wording, the produce could still have been sent half way around the world at some point in the process.... So unless you're buying from a local farm or growing yourself there's pretty much no way of reducing it very much.

which is what I do. I live rurally. Half my garden is an allotment so we eat lots of homegrown veg and fruit. Eat seasonally and buy the majority of our things from local farms, including meat. So yes I know my carbon footprint is smaller, than my friends. That's why my best friend (who is vegan) and I never have an issue. She knows I think about the environment too.

Sounds like you've met a lot of dickheads!

yep!

I have no idea why vegans would do that. Maybe they intended it to be a protest all along. Who knows why some people (whatever they eat) are knobheads.

Do vegans eat eggs if they have their own chickens, or is that considered cruel as well?

some would, some wouldn't.

Some feel it's exploitation of animals regardless of how its obtained or how the animals live.

If they eat eggs, then they're not vegan.

LaContessaDiPlump thanks for the info. She won't be able to bring anything like that through customs. We have cashew trees but only eat the fruit, don't usually bother with the nuts because of the risks and doubtful she'll get enough nuts to make enough milk anyway, plus it takes a couple of days to prepare them. I think she'll probably stick to water, wine and fruit juice. I can offer coconut milk, plenty of that! I'm sure she'll be fine it's only a couple of weeks. She sort of knows what she's letting herself into, she is coming to a farm after all.

If they eat eggs, then they're not vegan

so if you are vegan 363 days of the year and eat one egg from a friends chicken you lose the right to describe yourself as vegan?

The same as lots of pescetarians call themselves vegetarians, it's up the individual person what label they attach to themselves. If they wish to label it

If they eat eggs, then they're not vegan
Some people are vegan because of their current situation.We eat vegetarian when we go to London but we're not vegetarians. When we lived there we were.
I was thinking of my friend in particular that some people living in the middle of a big city might be vegan because that is the best choice they have for that situation. But what might happen is that seeing where your egg came from might mean that they can eat it for the time it's available. Just asking the opinion of vegans here out of interest because to me eggs happen anyway, they are not cruel so less of an issue than milk.

You can call yourself a tree, for all I care. I'm just pointing out the fact, that if you eat eggs you're not a vegan.

We eat vegetarian when we go to London but we're not vegetarians. When we lived there we were

That's a more honest way of putting it. You can eat vegetarian meals most of the time, but steak once a month, that means you're not vegetarian. I'm not knocking anyone that does that, bty. I do have a problem with people who call themselves vegan/vegetarian, but don't stick to it. I really don't understand how a committed vegan could bring themselves to eat eggs because they don't have access to the wide range of vegan foods, for a couple of weeks.

I really don't understand how a committed vegan could bring themselves to eat eggs because they don't have access to the wide range of vegan foods, for a couple of weeks.

because there are different reasons for being vegan. The is no one set formula.

People are all different, even vegans

I can certainly bring myself to eat an egg from a domestic chicken if it's available, because eggs are delicious I used to love meat, dairy and eggs, I certainly didn't stop eating them due to issues with taste!

If eating 2 or 3 eggs a year makes me non vegan then so be it. Increasingly I do have to overcome a certain reluctance to eat eggs even when nice ones are available, though. It's become engrained not to eat things that came out of other creatures.....

I don't eat eggs because by doing so I would be disrupting the natural order of things (simplistic way of putting it, but there you go). A hen lays eggs because she wants chickens - by eating the egg I'm denying it that possibility.

I also don't eat eggs because I'm firmly of the opinion that eating any animal products is injurious to my health. I suffer from osteoarthritis, and, prior to my becoming vegan, the knuckles on both my hands were becoming more and more painful and gnarled. A course of treatment of acupuncture sorted out the pain - but, surprisingly, once I became vegan, my osteoarthritis stabilised, and in fact, it hasn't got any worse over the past 13 years. I'm well aware that this is a study of one, but that's been my experience.

I've since read that consuming animal products can cause a leaky gut - which allows proteins or something (not sure of the science exactly) to pass over into the blood stream where they can affect the joints. Whatever, apart from being unable to clench my fists, I'm now completely unaffected by this disease.

Whilst I'm on the subject of my health, giving up dairy dramatically improved my sinuses.

So veganism has been a win win situation for me. That's all beside the consideration of animal cruelty and the fact that I'm doing my bit in the fight against global warming.

I must add that I have no hangups about people consuming eggs in the ways described upthread - we all have our own way of approaching things.

Bread I didn't know that about hens - don't they lay unfertilised eggs as part of their menstrual cycle? To clarify, that's what I'm happy to eat. Not baby chickens.

Yes they do La. It's not s conscious thing they do because they want babies.
Commercial eggs are also all unfertilised.

Hmm, I'm not so sure about the 'a hen lays eggs because they want babies'. Partly because of the normal menstrual cycle thing, partly because I'm not sure chickens do 'want babies' the same way that (some) humans do?

I've no evidence either way, obviously. And I'm certainly concerned about the welfare of egg-producing hens. But I struggle with what sounds to me like anthropomorphic reasoning.

I have a fantasy about one day living somewhere we could keep some ex battery hens in the garden. I would have no qualms about eating their eggs.

Hens lay eggs, our guinea fowl too. The peahen probably does but for some reason she never has chicks so either another animal is getting them, she's infertile or the peacock is! The hens and guineas lay all the time. Usually they just leave them but when they're broody they shit on them. Then they will become chicks. Even fertilized eggs, if they are not sat on in time will not become chicks. You can tell when a hen is broody because she gathers the eggs up. We have hundreds of eggs under bushes all over the farm. Those that are not eaten by animals are left, and if broken stink for several miles around. I am certainly not stealing their babies, and if they are planning for every egg to become a chick they are failing.
Of course I know when my hens are broody so I know which eggs we are beating the other animals to and which ones we would potentially be taking from the hen.

sit not shit, although that too.

Bread hope you don't have a neutered pet because that "they want babies and disrupting the natural order" would be equally applicable.

What a pleasure to read some considered, reasoned viewpoints!

Long may it continue.

My point, and I didn't express it very well (or at all, really! ), is that hens are kept in artificial conditions. If they were left in their natural state they would behave exactly as other wild fowl do.

There would be no battery cages, no mass killings of male chicks... I could go on, but I'm preaching to the converted, mainly, on this thread. However, as ever on these boards, we should always have lurkers in mind!

So by eating any eggs you feel you are supporting the egg industry?

But what about fake leather sofas. That's keeping leather look popular?

Oh, sorry, izzy, didn't address your point.

No pets here. Broadly speaking, I'm against keeping animals.

Yes, you can give out information for people to make up their own minds but you can't force people to give up leather.

Same goes for giving up meat and animal by products, you could give a person all the information in the world to why they should be vegan but you can't force them to make the change- it's their choice.

Ridiculous that people are bashing the OP. Good that this topic has been discussed. I didn't know children were standing in toxic chemicals to produce leather and I find that pretty horrifying

curren
I have come across plenty of vegans that do. Usually with piss poor arguments that don't add up and with insight into how awhile their choices are for the planet.

I work in the food and fitness industry. You come across a lot of them

curren, I'm wondering about the basis for your unfavourable opinions of vegans. You said you owned a restaurant for 5 years, during which time you experienced 6 different argumentative vegans. So 1.2 badly behaved vegans per year - a very small number. And as you said yourself: We probably had many vegans who just came in and ate without issue. Presumably you also experienced other difficult customers at your restaurant, who weren't vegans.

So if your experience of irritating vegans is largely based on your work in the fitness industry, can you clarify whether the vegans you come across with piss poor arguments are vegan for dietary, animal welfare or environmental reasons?

I actually agree with you about keeping animals. We have little choice, without animals the region I live in would need to survive as hunter gathers. Not feasible in the modern world and without vegan alternatives it's a bit of a rock and a hard place. I do make sure that our animals are well kept, don't remove young calves for example or fatten up the beef herd unnaturally or rapidly. Luckily traditional farming is characteristic of the region we live in and shows when one farmer tried to use feed lots and was boycotted until he abandoned the idea.

I think this If they were left in their natural state they would behave exactly as other wild fowl do. is why I asked about free range eggs where the chickens are free to be. People might feel differently about the eggs.
I don't know that chickens would ever behave as other fowl though. Our chickens have nothing between them and the whole continent, in that they are not fenced in but we feed them so they stay. When I call them all yhe birds come running to see what I've got, while the guineas stay in the background, the chickens are all over my legs and feet. I've removed many a chicken from the house, even found eggs in cupboards draws and bowls. I have never found a guinea or a guinea egg in the house. Maybe modern chickens have been selected to be interested in humans and are now so domesticated the ancestral chicken characteristics have gone, or maybe, this us why thet were domesticated in the first place. The guinea's are characteristically less interested and more wild. Most choose to sleep in trees rather than the henhouse. Although a few do, yet they were all (chickens and guinea fowl) born in the same place.