To ask Brexit or Bremain?

[LittleLionMansMummy]

Just a snap poll really:

I'm an innie.

I read her as saying they are ( of course) setting out a plan to bring about Independence but just not immediately!
Of course now I can't find her actual words..

I e got splinters still in my arse from the fence I was perched on but now 100% out.

"I read today that Sturgeon plans to push ahead with a second referendum"

If the UK leave Europe, can you blame them?!

A lot of the rhetoric about leaving the EU is exactly the arguments the SNP were putting forward for leaving the UK, being spouted by precisely the same group of people who rubbished the arguments when the SNP made them.

What happened to Better Together?!

Personally I have a lot of sympathy with the Scots wanting free of Westminister, but wanting to be part of Europe.

If they're stuck in a UK led by politicians that don't in any shape or form represent the politics of the vast majority of the Scottish people, but then they're also kicked out of Europe, again contrary to the wishes of their electorate (probably) that would be a terrible result for them.

If the UK leave Europe, can you blame them?!

We're not voting on whether to leave Europe, just the EU.

If sovereignty of Scotland is the issue for the snp I can't see the logic of then giving up sovereignty to the EU.
If Westminster centralisation is a problem how is Brussels or Strasbourg an improvement?
And I wonder why centralisation to Holyrood is acceptable.
Also remember 55% did vote to stay in the UK.

Plenty of folk remember life pre EU. UK joined EEC about 1973, the EU came into being in 1992 I think. Contrast that with the Act of Union in 1707 and the Union of the Crowns 1603.

If Scotland left the UK after a "stay in EU" result in June, would the rest of the UK then get a new referendum as the balance of opinion would have changed?

Roonerspism

I know a number of people voting Bremain to try to save the Union so there is no clear consensus

This one does my head in because I can't work out which is the best if you are a Scots Unionist / SNP and whether you're pro/anti-EU.

If Scotland votes REMAIN then, assuming the rUK does the same everyone stays in the UK and EU
If Scotland votes REMAIN but the rUK votes OUT then it would have to follow the rUK OUT of the EU but would have a good democratic case for a 2nd Indyref, to enable it to rejoin the EU. Where it could all go horribly wrong is if the EU refuses accession to an independent Scotland.

If Scotland votes OUT then, assuming the rUk votes OUT, we are all out of the EU but remained a United Kingdom
If Scotland votes OUT but rUK votes REMAIN, I suppose Scotland has a case for a 2nd Indyref but would have trouble rejoining the EU against the wishes of its population.

It will be a hard choice for a Scottish anti-EU pro-unionist. I suppose they have to vote REMAIN.

And of course if the UK remains in the EU the SNP will still be pushing for independence just as hard as ever.

Springing I will still vote leave. I don't think a brexit or a bremain will change the desire for independence. In the longer term a successful EU would seem like a safe haven for an "independent" Scotland however if I believed in a successful outcome for the EU I wouldn't be voting leave!

Rockunit

If Scotland left the UK after a "stay in EU" result in June, would the rest of the UK then get a new referendum as the balance of opinion would have changed?

Good question, because, just as the SNP are desperate to latch onto any constitutional issue to justify a 2nd / 3rd / 4th referendum, the LEAVE voters will probably do the same after the EU referendum if the result is to stay in.

I had hoped that whatever the result in June, people would accept it and park the issue, but Cameron's behaviour towards the LEAVE voters and in particular his unnecessary hostility to his own 'rebel' MPS makes that seem unlikely.

Back in 1975 Wilson more or less said - here's your referendum, argue it out and we'll abide by the decision. The result was a fair and open debate and both sides came together after the poll.
Cameron is withholding information, politicising the Civil Service. publicly ridiculing some of the LEAVE MPs, scare-mongering and actively campaigning for REMAIN. Half of his MPs, his most senior MEP and several others, plus some Cabinet Members, including his Justice Minister, Leader of the House and the Mayor of London are all on the other side. That's quite a powerful cabal ranged against him and they will be reluctant to put this behind them

So I wouldn't be surprised if we did see calls for a re-run of the referendum if it proves to have been Scotland's votes that had kept us in the EU.

TinySombrero

It's a bit of a Gordian knot. I suppose you have to pick what's most important to you , leaving the UK or leaving the EU.

If I was a unionist above all other considerations, I'd vote OUT and hope the rest of the UK also voted OUT, and an OUT vote would be more likely if the Scots unionists took that approach. That means your still in the Uk as you haven't given Sturgeon any mandate to seek a 2nd Indyref to join the EU.

Perhaps that's why she's now resurrecting the Indyref. Perhaps the SNOP's own private polls show there's a good chance of Brexit, so she's getting in first to promise a 2nd Indyref to encourage the SNP voters to vote REMAIN

I would love to remain in a reformed EU. However, Cameron recent travails in trying to renegotiate our position has shown how difficult it is in getting favourable change to happen. You would think that the threat of a large, prosperous net contributor leaving would be enough to concentrate the minds of the EU elite. It did not.

However, they are explicit about the federal project and ever closer union. When that happens, we will have even less of a say than at present. Something will have to give - and it will not be the EU.

So, I am reluctantly voting out.

In.

Yes, I agree TheABC.

If Cameron couldn't even negotiate a reasonable deal when we're considering leaving the EU, how much worse would it be if we'd chosen to stay in it?

The idea of Britain being "influential" in the EU appears to be pie in the sky.

In the interests of fairness can't England have a referendum on whether or not we want to remain with Scotland? Especially if they're going to influence the brevity vote and then fuck off and do their own thing anyway?

Brexit not brevity. And I know very little about politics - most of what I know comes from discussions like this so please forgive my ignorance

Brexit not brevity That'll be on the front page of the Sun

In, without question.

IN

In. As a Brit now living on the continent, it's an easy choice for me.

I'm sure I'd be able to stay here anyway in the event of Brexit, but the thought of all the paperwork and visa-hoop-jumping and changing my driving license and navigating inevitable changes to reciprocal agreements re taxes and pensions and health care....oh God, no, please no.

Outie here.

DH is also an outie (and a first gen immigrant which makes me chuckle)

MrsGrady I completely agree. Goodbye Scotland

In the interests of fairness can't England have a referendum on whether or not we want to remain with Scotland? Especially if they're going to influence the brevity vote and then fuck off and do their own thing anyway?

I agree.

Can we finally cut them loose they are always like a rabid dog pulling on the chain, foaming at the mouth, snapping at us when we come near, cut them loose..