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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask Brexit or Bremain?

300 replies

LittleLionMansMummy · 11/03/2016 15:25

Just a snap poll really:

I'm an innie.

OP posts:
ExConstance · 12/03/2016 16:23

In, outie politicians seem to be a bunch of opportunists. Also Scotland will have to split if we vote out as it would not be fair or tennable for them to have to leave EU when they wish to stay.

Followyourart · 12/03/2016 16:24

I agree, England will be completely alone, I'm not sure how we will fare in this case.. To be honest the idea terrifies me.
Do we not already have control of our borders? I don't see migrants flooding in? (I think they know it wouldn't be great for then here anyway..)

notamummy10 · 12/03/2016 16:24

Outie!

rainbowjoy · 12/03/2016 16:31

In and in from dh too

duckyneedsaclean · 12/03/2016 16:31

I'm undecided.

If we go out can we stop having those cookies permission things on every website?

If we go out will my European husband have to get a visa to stay?

OvariesBeforeBrovaries · 12/03/2016 16:34

I hope Wales splits from England if they vote out.

TinySombrero · 12/03/2016 16:37

I don't think Scotland will want to split in the near future as the financial picture is not rosy atm. And I think that the SNP are a bit too canny to jump off the cliff as it were. Long term membership of a successful EU would become a pillar of their bid for independence, but that supposes the EU does manage to survive successfully.

MuddlingMackem · 12/03/2016 16:39

Those of you who are voting in because we currently have a Tory government - how would you vote if we currently had a Labour one? Would that make you think differently?

Voting based on something which is not going to remain the same indefinitely is not, in my opinion, a good basis on which to make a decision.

thepiratenextdoor · 12/03/2016 16:41

I'm voting out.

Followyourart · 12/03/2016 16:42

I also wonder what will happen to all those who own overseas property or have retired in Europe, guessing they will have to come back? Border controls work both ways.

SpringingIntoAction · 12/03/2016 16:44

This is the question and the options on which we will be voting:

^Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

Remain a member of the European Union
Leave the European Union^

So the UK Remains in or the UK leaves.

If Scotland / Wales / N Ireland subsequently decide they want to leave the United Kingdom that's for them to decide. There is no purpose in leaving the UK unless they are planning to join the EU.

If, having left the Union, they decide to ballot to join the EU they may find themselves surprised at the result. Scotland / Wales / N Ireland are relatively rich countries compared to the countries that are now in negations to join the EU, which are countries like Albania, Macedonia, Bosnia, all of which are going to need a huge amount of EU funding to improve their infrastructure, farming and social standards. I cannot see the average Scot, Welsh or N Ireland person voting to join the EU to join the precarious Euro and to fund the development of these new EU member countries. Sco/Wel/NIre have done well from the EU but now they will be asked to put their hands in their pockets for the next joiners.

But if they want to, that's fine. I cannot deny any country wanting it's own self-determination when that's exactly what I want for the country I live in - although I would prefer to have self-determination it's not a show-stopper.

OTheHugeManatee · 12/03/2016 16:47

Melanie - I think voting Out is probably our best chance at saving the Union. If the UK votes to leave and the SNP forces another independence referendum, they will lose - their sums don't add up with oil so cheap. And a second referendum will settle the matter for good.

OTheHugeManatee · 12/03/2016 16:48

Sorry - that's to Muddling. Not sure who Melanie is Confused

SpringingIntoAction · 12/03/2016 16:58

I also wonder what will happen to all those who own overseas property or have retired in Europe, guessing they will have to come back? Border controls work both ways.

ECHR (nothing to do with the EU) gives everyone right to peaceful enjoyment of their possessions. A house is a possession. It cannot be taken from them summarily.

International law prevents one country from expelling any sector of its habitual population. To do so is deemed a 'crime against humanity'.

But forget all that and start thinking for yourself -

Do you think Spain, for instance would take all the houses off the British owners because they have left the EU and leave ghost towns up and down the Costas, just a few years after the big Spanish housing slump - of course not.

Do you think the Spanish will kick out all the British pensioners whose pensions contribute to the Spanish economy and create jobs for Spaniards in Spain - of course not.

Do you think Spain will kick out all the British who are working in Spain and whose skills contribute to the Spanish economy? Highly unlikely. I would imagine the businesses that employ them would raise merry hell with the Spanish Govt if it proposed that and they suddenly had to fire, recruit and retrain. However, if the Spanish Govt really want to do that they will be free to do so. Just as we, as a free country, making our own immigration laws that allow us to invite anyone from across the world with the skills we need to come and live in the UK, could equally say - but not if you're Spanish. Not that we'd want to, nor would we, - but we could.

If you think things through you realise that a lot of the 'they'll kick everybody out' is just more project fear scare-mongering.

We have to stop seeing ourselves as people who have things done to them and start to realise that, with restored sovereignty, who does what to whom is a negotiated settlement.

SpringingIntoAction · 12/03/2016 17:00

OTheHugeManatee

I think voting Out is probably our best chance at saving the Union

Totally agree.

Brightnorthernlights · 12/03/2016 17:01

Out.

Vitruvius · 12/03/2016 17:12

"Europa was the fairest of the gods, and the most beautiful too. She will be your guiding torch in the darkness."- Theocrates of Byzantium, Lives of Saints. Book 1, Part 2. 100 B.C.

"We must re-create the European Family, or as much of it as we can, and provide it with a structure under which it can dwell in peace, in safety and in freedom. We must build a kind of United States of Europe."- Winston Churchill, Zurich Speech. 1946.

"Nobody in Europe will be abandoned. Nobody in Europe will be excluded. Europe only succeeds if we work together."- Angela Merkel, Berlin speech. 2005.

TinySombrero · 12/03/2016 17:24

Norway, Switzerland and Iceland remain European.

Prole · 12/03/2016 17:56

springingintoaction one thing you missed about Spain is the drain these aging Brits have on the local health service. There are so many brits there, the NHS pays money to Spain for this. The Spanish don't feel it's anywhere near enough to cover all these expats though. some expats may return if they lose free healthcare?

SpringingIntoAction · 12/03/2016 19:19

"We must re-create the European Family, or as much of it as we can, and provide it with a structure under which it can dwell in peace, in safety and in freedom. We must build a kind of United States of Europe."- Winston Churchill, Zurich Speech. 1946

Notice Churchill sais "in which it can dwell in peace, not in which we can dwell in peace.

Churchill was very precise in his use of words. He wanted a United States of Europe but with Great Britain outside that union, providing the focal point in the relationships because between the United States of America, our Commonwealth and the United States of Europe. It was France and Germany who together would lead the US of Europe.

That's why Churchill said (15/02/1930)

We have our own dream and our own task.
We are with Europe, but not of it.
We are linked but not combined.
We are interested and associated but not absorbed.

Churchill actually offered France full political union with the UK in 1940 in an attempt to keep France fighting in WW2. The offer was declined. Churchill had plenty of time in his 2nd premiership in the 1950's to resurrect that idea but he didn't, because he never intended that the UK would be within a US of Europe.

I could quote you things from Junckers, von Rumpey, Martin Schulz, etc that would give you some idea of the disdain in which they hold our democracy and right to self-determination

SpringingIntoAction · 12/03/2016 19:31

springingintoaction one thing you missed about Spain is the drain these aging Brits have on the local health service. There are so many brits there, the NHS pays money to Spain for this. The Spanish don't feel it's anywhere near enough to cover all these expats though. some expats may return if they lose free healthcare?

Our NHS paid £647 million to European countries and recovered £49 million from them.

www.cityam.com/235851/eu-referendum-labour-mp-john-mann-states-uk-paid-out-647m-for-health-costs-to-european-countries-last-year-with-just-49m-received-back

Where's the evidence to support the fact that Spain feels it's being short-changed?

Lanark2 · 12/03/2016 19:34

Stop briverting the issue away from fucking up the NHS, the economy, the benefits system, planning, high streets policy and weakening the third sector gap-filling as well as extending the gaps and increasing reliance on food banks.

OTheHugeManatee · 12/03/2016 19:53

"Nobody in Europe will be abandoned. Nobody in Europe will be excluded. Europe only succeeds if we work together."

Greece has been hung out to dry several times in the years since she expressed that lofty sentiment. By Merkel. "If we all work together" in the context of the quote above translates as "If you do what I say."

TinySombrero · 12/03/2016 19:56

Merkel's behaviour has made me jump off the fence on Europe tbh.

Roonerspism · 12/03/2016 20:49

huge I read today that Sturgeon plans to push ahead with a second referendum.

Aside from me thinking many things (like fuck off and actually run the country), I'm mystified as to how any sane person could think it is a good idea economically. But clearly she does. How bizarre.

I know a number of people voting Bremain to try to save the Union so there is no clear consensus.

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