To think that children will fit in around OUR lives, not the other way around?

[HonestQuestion]

I am sure I'm going to get flamed for this but maybe there will be some good advice too! (I have NCd)

DH and I were talking last night about how we intend to bring up children. We have seen friends and family where DC rule the roost - everything is organised around the children. The children aren't ever left to their own devices to play; the parents are constantly playing with them and distracting them with activities. The TV is always switched to children's channels, not the news or anything adult. Evenings with the family have to be run on the children's schedule for naps and snacks and feeding.

Even when they are in bed, the mums are held hostage to the DC speaking over the walkout talkie and summoning them to the bedroom plenty of times before they finally go to sleep. We meet up with our friends for lunch or dinner or a day out, and always seem to come home not really having had much of a chat or catch up with our friends - because the day or evening is always all about the children - we all have to be in their thrall!

It seems the experience of raising a child these days is so far removed from how DH and I were brought up. We remember being left to our own devices to play, watching the news and learning about the world from it, we remember that the adults ruled the house - my dad would never have dreamed of having kids' TV on all evening when he got home from work!

And it's so far removed from how we want to raise our children. We don't want to lose 'who we are' and what we find interesting. A friend of ours said on FB the other day that she is going on a mini break and leaving her DC alone overnight for the first time in 3 years! I can't imagine being like that! And I can't imagine having a DC, meeting up with friends but spending that time constantly entertaining the children.

AWBU? I have my hard hat ready...

I'm in two minds about your post. On the one hand I agree but on the other it isn't practical, sadly.

We made some big changes when we had our first. we moved out of London to the country. That immediately impacted life as it's much harder to do certain things from where we live now. You can't pop for lunch with friends or go out after work easily.

By the time our third arrived their father gave up work to look after them. That also necessitated changes. His days were focuses on the practicalities of looking after the kids and b/c I work long hours (and am currently pregnant) he does the mornings with them. That means when friends come to stay he is usually zonked by 10ish.

Tiredness with young kids is another thing. You can't underestimate how knackering it is to never have a lie in past 7am coupled with the odd week of night waking a due to ill children. That again impacts on your decision as to whether it might be nice to go to get a baby sitter so you can go to dinner party or spend the day at a museum.

That all said, I despise monitors for exactly the reason you state and have never used them. I was horrified that older children use them to demand things from parents which they could very well get themselves or talk to parents when they should be sleeping.

I don't like children cutting across adult conversation and they get a very sharp word if they try.

I hate children climbing all over parents

I think children should be able to play by themselves without adult input (unless the adult wants to play)

I detest whinging and 'pllllleereeease' or kids trying to negotiate with me

Although it's hard to go out for an evening we have regular large very raucous parties which often start while the kids are awake then go on for a long time after they go to bed. I find the whole 'I can't face a hangover with the children' a bit pathetic.

I also find parents talking to you through their children beyond irritating

Finally I don't understand parents who don't encourage kids to do things for things for themselves from a young age.

So with you to a certain extent.

The thing is that at the moment you see kids as a burden - nothing wrong with that, I did until my own came along, I mean that literally even whilst I was pregnant with my first, I thought ah this won't change me, I will go back to work, still go out, he will just fit in around my life etc, then I met him and everything changed! Spending time with your kids isn't a chore it will be your favourite thing to do! It seems like maybe you feel a bit put out that your friends attention wasn't wholly on you, don't be at all offended by this, it's just now your friends kids are way more important and interesting than you (to your friends that is!)

I gave this post the same smile I give to pregnant friends idealising about perfect peaceful water births. Yes it's lovely and happens for some but for many other too there is some sort of compromise going to happen with your lifestyle whether you want it or not.

I don't disagree that there people can pander too much to their kids sometimes but as well it kind of depends on the kids you get. And ages too. Expecting someone with a small baby to hold an in dept conversation over dinner is probably a bit unrealistic but when they get old enough to understand to be quiet and occupy themselves for busts then that seems reasonable.

We go out lots but if we're in a public place eating out with friends we pretty much have to alternate amusing our toddler to get any conversation in. But this won't b forever and it is better than them screaming down the restaurant.

Similarly, we never thought we would work around naptimes. But honestly, the returns for messing with sleep are rarely worth it for us.

Good luck though OP and I mean that genuinely. It is hard adjusting to compromise when you go in thinking they will fit in. I was very similar and have found it a struggle myself.

I can't imagine having a DC, meeting up with friends but spending that time constantly entertaining the children.

Let me fix that for you : I can't imagine having a DC, meeting up with friends but spending that time constantly entertaining the children.

:)

Of course, the reality is that you find a middle ground. You can't just fit them into your life with no changes at all but, equally, you don't need to make it all about them. Children do need to learn that they have to compromise. Everyone parents in a way that suits them, from the helicopters to the benign neglecters.

A lot also depends on the sort of child you get. You might get an amenable one, you might get a whirling banshee who is never still. My first two were one of each, my third somewhere in the middle. All required somewhat different handling.

You can set boundaries and limits but ultimately there are times when you have to put your children first. To what extent will depend on your children: for eg neither of my children, as babies or toddlers, would sleep in a pushchair or at a party. So we had the choice between sticking to a sensible routine, or a distressed child plus frustrated adults.

My parents' generation had much less choice about having children (DH's parents are working class Catholics, and DH was conceived on their honeymoon when his mum was 18). We have much more choice over when, or whether, we have them. I don't understand why anyone would bother unless they were prepared to make compromises.

I think it's a bit off to call me a "smug, judgemental person" Delete because as I have explained above, not agreeing with something doesn't mean you're joking your judgeypants. It just means you don't agree with it.

And FWIW, I think the NHS is marvellous and my birth plan will be, "You're the experts, I trust you to do whatever you think it necessary to keep me and my baby safe, thank you".

It's true that it is impossible to imagine what it's like to have a child until you have one.

I could never have imagined how much I would enjoy the company of DS, enjoy seeing how our time spent together throws up new conversations and will spark off all sorts of funny things.

He's also pretty much of a whirlwind and I have to keep a very close eye on him!

I find it quite weird if I meet up with friends during the day and they want to have long deep catch-up type conversations. The time for that is over a few glasses of wine in the evenings, not when DS is either excited to join in the chat or determined to get into scrapes.

Like most people I think the truth is somewhere between the two extremes you are talking about. We are still our own people and we do stuff individually and as a family that interests us. We take DS to places we want to go and he 'fits in' to the lifestyle we lead to some extent. We also sometimes take the path of least resistance and put the telly on channel 121 for a bit of peace. We do some things we never thought we would before we had DS. We sometimes fuck it up and wish we'd done something differently. But mostly we have found a new way of living that we all enjoy and get a huge amount of happiness and fulfilment from.

The under 5s are a different beast than school age dc. You probably remember being school age and your friends sound like they have toddlers or quite young kids.
Why would you want your life to be the same anyway? I certainly didn't visit children's museums or petting farms before I had ds but I love doing stuff like that with him. I think there is a lot more family entertainment available these days but that is a good thing! Having a variety of activities stimulates me as well as ds.
As for interrupting, I've taught ds to say "excuse me" when he wants to get my attention hopefully that comes across better than "stop talking I want to talk"!
Oh and a good night time and nap routine is its own reward so I would only interrupt that for special occasions not as a weekly thing.

hoiking, not joking! DYAC.

I think it depends on a lot of factors and is also a matter of balance.

Certainly when the children are very little your lives are run by them in a lot of ways but very young babies can also be quite portable and if you're lucky enough to get a sleeper there's no reason you can go out and visit friends and have a good catch up.

As they get older but are still small routine is important to their wellbeing and although some variation to the routine is OK its probably not fair to the children to be the type of parents who take them off here there and everywhere each weekend and never give any thought to when they should be napping or if they're going to be getting any meaningful interaction and not just being fobbed off and placated all weekend.

For us, our 3.5yr old DS was ill when he was little and he is a very sensitive and clingy child and he needs a lot more interaction and support than another child of the same age might. He also gets unsettled when out of routine so its generally been easier to plan around this rather than deal with the fall out if we don't, that just ruins the day anyway. He's only just now getting to the stage where we could leave him overnight with his grandparents, before he would have been too distressed. Other parents I know though have been able to have weekend breaks since their little ones were 6 months and a couple have even managed a week away with their 4 year olds happily staying at grandma's.

There's no question that as children get older they do become more independent and should be able to better amuse themselves which then frees up some time for you when you want/need it. That's the time to take advantage of doing stuff for yourselves.

Now for example, we can go out for a meal with DS to meet family or friends but we'd need to pick somewhere with a play area if we wanted it to be relaxing and have a proper catch up. In a few more years he'll be able to sit at the table for longer and have things he can amuse himself with whilst sat down and that opens up the options. Babysitters are also on option of course. I think planning carefully makes all the difference here in terms of not having to spend all your time focused on the children.

With regards to TV etc, again I think it depends on their age. When DS was younger we had the news etc on but now he's at the age he pays attention but is (in our opinion) to young to learn about suicide bombing, rape and murder so it stays off. Other things like sport and cooking programmes etc then fine.

You might also find that your own opinions change once you are parents. There have been times over the last few years that I've wished for things to be a bit more like they used to be in terms of getting out and time for myself but mostly I've relished the time with DS and have been happy to fit things around him.

Once they start growing up you realise how true the cliché of it going so fast is and I'd hate to be sat here in 10 years time with a 13 year old who only wanted to spend time with his mates wishing I'd paid more attention to him and spent more time together when that's what he wanted.

We remember being left to our own devices

kids are still left to their own devices.but those devices are now iPads and mobile phones, so the meaning of devices has changed somewhat

Oh OP. We let our children play freely rather than interact with them all the time, and we are lucky that they will sleep anywhere. We aren't trying to be their best friends. But you seem to underestimate how much children change your behaviour. I honestly hadn't considered before kids how hard it is to leave them to for example go out for dinner as a couple (when little you don't want to use a stranger, and family help wasn't nearby). Children need to be occupied all the time, so inevitably you have to change your behaviour and routine from pre-kids. They need meals at mealtimes, whereas pre kids you could wing it. You can't just sit reading the newspaper all day, you do have to interact with them sometimes

Good point BadLAd. Needless to say there will be no electronics in the bedroom and limited screen/device time elsewhere! And no iPhones at 11 years old!

Also, have you seen the fucking news?!

Anyone remember settling down at 5pm to watch the news with their parents when they were little and learning aaaall about the grisly toddler beheadings and gang rapes and massacres? Hmm, I don't, I wonder what's changed...

I think the OP is a reaction to a hell of a lot of pandering that goes on these days, I see it in my friends and family and I am shocked by it. Every single thing dictated to the parents from the kids who meekly oblige. I certainly do not want to parent like that and I think the OP was perhaps clumsily expressing the same view.

I also really do not agree with the whole thing on MN of 'no children, no opinion on parenting.' Absolute bollocks and so condescending. The OP has experienced parenting, when she was a child, and it is this experience she is considering when thinking about her own future. Yes it's hard to picture what being a parent is like and the ways it changes your life but it is absolutely acceptable (and I would say desirable) to have a good think about what kind of parent you want to be, what kind of life you want your child to have, how you want to model behaviour to them. This might make the OP a better parent than those who haven't given it any thought. I have a child therefore am allowed to have an opinion apparently. Guess what - it's the same one I had pre-children!

OP if it helps to know, you will instinctively change your feelings and behaviour, so don't worry about that. I was very concerned about losing my social life, my career etc. My hormones took over and those things became unimportant and undesirable with a tiny baby to care for. They consume your world, for good reason. But be the best parent you can be in the style that you want to and listen to your instincts.

We said this! We were stupid enough to think a child would just fit in.

Our children don't hold us hostage but our life is now utterly different to how it was before children.

Baby years were tiring but probably easiest as all we had to do was feed and cuddle etc.

Once they move ! Honestly you need to be an octopus.

Toddlers, terrible 2's drive you demented and NO they do not just fit. It's their way or tantrum day and night.

Then school comes along. Your stuck to term time, school hours. Homework, play dates, birthday parties, after school activities.

If your working the childcare issue alone makes life tricky!

Incidentally - baby monitors. Haven't used one in a decade. Then a few weeks ago ds1 developed epilepsy. A friend very kindly gave me a monitor she was no longer using & there I am listening to my teenager on a baby monitor. You just don't know what will happen.

We didn't have stair gates with ds2 & ds3 because ds1 reacted so badly to their presence, but that didn't make our lives any easier (had to supervise more closely).

You have to muddle through with what works - which depends very much on your children.

I think I sort of understand you. It does depend on many things though - how many children you have and their personalities and needs. I have one DS and he's an easy going, adaptable chap. I took him on holiday when he was 4 with a friend and we stayed up til 11 and slept in til 10 every day. I drove to London to have dinner with friends recently (he's 7) and he sat at the table eating ice cream and watching a film on my iPad through headphones while we chatted, we left at 10 and he fell asleep in the car. He is my mate as well as my son and we have a laugh. But, life does revolve around him! His school and activities, paying for childcare before other stuff, always considering where he can stay and have fun rather than be 'palmed off' if I want to have a night out, everything really. Kids do that.
I am happy to let him stay away from me, either with his dad or with my parents, I have never been precious about that. But again that's due to his personality. I wouldn't do it if he wasn't happy!
So my advice to uou would be - don't expect too much from the first 3 years, frankly it can be so bloody hard and soul destroying that you will often do whatever it takes to get them to eat/sleep/whatever and socialising will take a back seat. And don't have more than 2 kids, preferably one!

Both our DC have fitted into our lives and added to them. They have stayed with friends overnight since they were small, have been out with us, stayed at home with baby sitters, gone to concerts, the theatre, travelled etc. etc. all the things we loved doing, they have done and, mostly, they love doing now. We didn't do stair gates, jars of food or dummies, because that is how we chose to parent. It wasn't all easy...a non-sleeper was a challenge, but you are not being ridiculous. It's an adventure being a parent, we were told that it would all change, we were well behind our friends in having children, it didn't. Go for it...I have two amazing young men now.

Well YABU but I think you know that really. Yes it is possible to get a baby that will happily be carted around all over the place and go to sleep at dinner parties, they definitely exist, I've seen a couple of them. However, they are in the minority. At the other end of the scale it's perfectly possible to have one that will only sleep being cuddled in a very specific position in your bed and even then will wake every hour, for at least the first six months. In which case you're just so tired you won't be going anywhere, not to mention your back will be killing you.

When it comes to leaving them overnight, your average two year old won't be consistently sleeping through the night. My eldest was, and we left her with grandparents overnight for the first time when she was nearly 3. My youngest is 2 1/2 and no way could I inflict her on someone else overnight, it would be cruel both to her and to whoever was trying to look after her.

As to playing with them all the time, depends on age and child. Some kids will happily entertain themselves from a young age, some need more attention. If you've got one that needs more attention you won't be able to ignore them believe me.

It's worth remembering that 40 years ago (when I was a baby), leaving babies to cry themselves to sleep was pretty normal. As was making them wait for hours between feeds to keep to a schedule rather than cater to their very real hunger. Go back even further and caning young children was considered okay. Just because something used to be done it doesn't mean it's right. We're generally more enlightened about what's best for young children now and things have changed accordingly.

You don't lose who you are when you have kids, but being a parent becomes the most important part of who your are for the early years. If you don't want to do that then please remember that having children is not compulsory, more and more couples are choosing not to these days, you don't have to do it. If you do plan on having kids then it's best to assume that they will completely turn your lift upside down, for the early years at least. But honestly, having your life turned upside down by kids is really wonderful. There's some good programmes on cbeebies, and 3am cuddles instead of dinner parties are actually rather lovely (if exhausting!).

Honest you just don't know, it depends on very many things - what sort of DCs you have etc.

Parts of your post I agree with and maybe that's because I married and had DCs later in life so me and DH were pretty set in our ways and probably selfish!

However, it does all change. Don't for one minute think that you will carry on as before but just happen to have children. I never stopped holidaying with girlfriends (along with family holidays of course) because it was important to me and I didn't want to lose that part of me. My DH never stopped his sport watching on a weekend, we just shared it all out. I never allowed my DC's to interrupt adult conversation unless it was important as that was one of my pet hates.

However, nights out frequently went by the board because unless you have willing family near, you're buggered, and I didn't. Yes, I did get babysitters but it gets expensive and we couldn't afford to do it as much as we wanted.

One thing that was important to me was children learning to play on their own. It's good for kids to get bored and make their own amusement so we were definitely not wall to wall activities. They learned to play together. It paid off, their imaginary friends and the games they all played were wonderful. They are now young adults and it still comes up in conversation! It's almost a part of their childhood they look back on fondly and rather shlep around in the car doing god knows what activity, they just played.

If I were you, I wouldn't have too much of the fixed ideas in your head because it will be very different than you imagine.

Let's hope you don't have twins then. Good luck with not changing your life after that little incident.

I understand OP.

I was a MUCH better parent before I had kids. Knew exactly how it should be done.

And I can't imagine having a DC, meeting up with friends but spending that time constantly entertaining the children. Well try it, because I can tell you hand on heart you cannot that it's near impossible to have a full on conversation with a friend like the good old days with a toddler in tow. (baby perhaps as they sleep more).

I have to ask OP are you pregnant? If so can we see your Birth Plan, as im thinking it may have been similar to mine- water birth, relaxing music, no drugs, dp to do this and that.... 4 days of slow labour and I was screaming at anyone for a c section and any drugs they had in the building.

As someone else said above are you sure you want to have children? Why not offer to babysit your friends children one day so you can stop judging and actually see what it's like? when dd was born, in fact I've dropped some friends because of their lack of understanding that dd and now ds come first, If they needs my help then that's more important than listening about you selling your house, or whats your friend i work has said this week!