To think that children will fit in around OUR lives, not the other way around?

[HonestQuestion]

I am sure I'm going to get flamed for this but maybe there will be some good advice too! (I have NCd)

DH and I were talking last night about how we intend to bring up children. We have seen friends and family where DC rule the roost - everything is organised around the children. The children aren't ever left to their own devices to play; the parents are constantly playing with them and distracting them with activities. The TV is always switched to children's channels, not the news or anything adult. Evenings with the family have to be run on the children's schedule for naps and snacks and feeding.

Even when they are in bed, the mums are held hostage to the DC speaking over the walkout talkie and summoning them to the bedroom plenty of times before they finally go to sleep. We meet up with our friends for lunch or dinner or a day out, and always seem to come home not really having had much of a chat or catch up with our friends - because the day or evening is always all about the children - we all have to be in their thrall!

It seems the experience of raising a child these days is so far removed from how DH and I were brought up. We remember being left to our own devices to play, watching the news and learning about the world from it, we remember that the adults ruled the house - my dad would never have dreamed of having kids' TV on all evening when he got home from work!

And it's so far removed from how we want to raise our children. We don't want to lose 'who we are' and what we find interesting. A friend of ours said on FB the other day that she is going on a mini break and leaving her DC alone overnight for the first time in 3 years! I can't imagine being like that! And I can't imagine having a DC, meeting up with friends but spending that time constantly entertaining the children.

AWBU? I have my hard hat ready...

IMO the biggest mistake people make before becoming parents is thinking that what happens in families has more to do with the parents choices than the children's realities.

The main reason my sister was able to carry on with her life pretty much uninterrupted while mine was turned on its head was that her babies are calm happy go lucky types that love being left with a baby sitter or at nursery while mine screamed for the best part of 9 months every time she saw a face that wasn't one of her parents and did the same sort of thing at nursery.

Babies are different, children are different. Parents with any sense find they have to adapt to the nature of their children for the sake of the children and themselves.

Draylon following on from what you said - never forget a comment on one thread the poster that was adamant neither she nor her DH could leave "their child" even for a day to attend a family wedding as it may interfere with said child's schooling.

The "child" was an NT 15 year old.

I have to agree with the opinion that it depends largely on what kind of child you get, and unfortunately it's a total lottery I hear what you're saying and I remember thinking pre-children that I wouldn't have my life ran by an army of tiny people! It then came as a huge shock to me when my very challenging and very refluxy baby dictated how my day went not unlike a mini Hitler I always refer to him as 'a tough first gig' as he was such a challenge. I think the trouble is, particularly if you're first time parents, the challenge of parenting is so all consuming that it means other parts of your life inevitably take a back seat because you're so tired and a lot of your (my) energy goes into worrying about whether I'm doing a good enough job or whether he's developing properly or whether we might run out of nappies etc etc. I'm aware that the first time we took our baby to meet our friends I hardly had a chance to exchange two words with some of the people there, I was totally overwhelmed with having my colicky/refluxy baby out in public, my anxiety spiralled the unhappier he became, and I couldn't function socially the way I had before. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure someone with more experience or a calmer disposition than me might have been able to juggle things better. But I guess you just do the best you can in the situation you're given X

But the poster was a GF😄

Prof but Gina just gives the illusion of control. Yup, you train them to nap at a fixed tine and place. Then (and I've seen this) you leave lunch, yoga, shops etc etc in a flap in case you damage "the routine".

Most people have a somewhere in the middle approach.

PP about NT 15 year olds needing mummy at home (seen these on MN and laughed) are funny but aren't really relevant as they're so extreme.
Most people have lifestyle changes for their kids.
Most people have boundaries for their kids.

Some people end up husks.
Some people give them to a nanny as soon as the cord is cut and pop out to a drinks party in their hospital gown.
...bit those are the extremes.

Some people end up husks.
Some people give them to a nanny as soon as the cord is cut and pop out to a drinks party in their hospital gown.
...bit those are the extremes.

Yes, and I bet those people were also very different as babies.

aw Bubs, it is hard isn't it?!

I had one of those too.

Ended up with PND and anxiety attacks. That was fun.

So much for not changing my life

No, sorry, my post was in response to Kerala. She said - The "child" was a NT 15 year old. And I meant to reply - And the "poster" was a goady fucker. But it went a bit wrong!

This thread is no surprise. Many people scorning OP and telling her just wait and see.
I too think that the majority of parents are over invested in their children, want to be their best friend, rather than parent them.
I think OP may find some bits hard, but her fundamental idea is not ridiculous.
The fact that so many posters are the polar opposite, just confirms my fears. Hopefully the next generation will be more balanced.

so many posters are the polar opposite,

They aren't. They are realistic.

Struggling to see how you can be 'over-invested' in the most important thing most of us will ever do.

Raising children so they learn manners/boundaries/behaviour and are well-attached requires a fuck-ton of effort.

We should be applauding those that make the effort.

(Which isn't to say we should all be mummy martyrs...)

I want my kids to be part of the family and to take a share of the responsibility. I want them to grow up feeling included not excluded. I'm not dictated to by them but equally their individual needs are met just as ours as adults are.

Children aren't an additional life accessory. They aren't something to try and work around so you carry on as usual. They are family members and their views do matter.

The majority of posters here seem to be realistic about that.

My life is great. I have carried on the hobby I did pre kids after small breaks during the tiny baby phase. I have scaled back my commitment because I choose to. Because I actively WANT to be part of my family life.

I didn't have kids to carry on as before. I had kids to grow and develop my family and to have these wonderful people in my life.

The thing you're missing, OP, as did I....is that you will like your kids and want to give them good times....you'll be spending far more times at softplay etc because you'll want them to have fun (also it a the only way we can read the Sunday papers.

You won't want to go out and come home massively late becausen you'll know that you'll all have a miserable time the next day....

Small things all add up. I spouted the same old claptrap right until I was in Labour and now we laugh about it.

I went on a two-night mini-break with child-free friends in the halcyon days of a 1-year old PFB. It was dull and shit, pretending to be overly interested in the hotel facilities and discussing the fine dining. I just wanted my baby. Now kids come along.

Still doing trips for work when necessary, even week-long ones and international conferences. Voluntarily leaving the kids otherwise? Not for me at the moment, thanks. I have no need for a break from them beyond a night out, I love them and want to have my breaks with them.

They'll be gone soon enough, off to live their own life.

I don't think you're unreasonable either OP. DS largely fitted in. That's not to say your life doesn't change hugely when you have kids, but you don't have to be ruled by them.

I suppose I may have been lucky that DS is quite self contained and has always been comfortable in his own company, and there is only one of him. However, most of my friends and family with 2 or 3 have the same experience. Yes, the DCs are hugely important and loved, but they don't get to be in charge. Other friends have been like the friends you describe... and I no longer see them much.

I don't think going out on the razz for an all night bender, and having a huge hangover, when you've got a PFB, is quite what is being suggested. I don't get hangovers. But you can go out when the children are a bit older. Loads of people don't though. Oh I can't, the children can't settle without me!! There is quite a bit of martyr'ish comment on MN.
Children need to be loved and supported. Not doted on and over indulged. Many mums seem to live through their children. One poster replied to me that you couldn't be 'over-invested' in bringing up children? Really. I've seem it a lot on both MN and in RL.

we seem to have swung over to a generation of children who are self inflated and seem to think they are centre of the world. I really don't know how his happened, or why children from the 70's are parenting in this way. Is it seriously a mystery to me.
Children aren't centre of the universe. They are only ONE member of the family. Without brothers and sisters, and without parents who invest as much in their own marriage as they do in the family unit, then there isn't a family, for the children to be part of. Not ideal.
We need to edge back, ever so very slightly away, in our parenting style, from placing such importance on the child, back to knowing that they are loved and supported, but also only one of a unit. I think this very minor adjustment would help.

Children settle for the night at different ages, though. I couldn't go out when I had a four year old and a one year old. I could with a four year old and a seven year old. The babysitting cost makes it a rare treat, though. A mother who has no trusted adults to leave a baby with so stays in isn't being more PFB than someone who leaves the baby with a grandparent once a week or who hires a nanny. They just have different opportunities.

Jasper yes exactly.

obs, I think many/most parents need to step up to the point where children know they're loved and supported, not step back.

Up to 50% of adults are thought to have have insecure attachments. That's shocking.

FTR, I'm not talking about most MN mums; those that are here and asking for advice (rather than hanging out in AIBU) are obviously trying hard and doing the best they can.

As for the investment thing, maybe some parents are wrongly-invested or misguidedly-invested rather than over-invested. (Not me, obviously I'm doing it just right ).

Really? 1/2 of adults have insecure attachment? Good grief, I had no idea it was that high.

"Up to 50% of adults are thought to have have insecure attachments. That's shocking. "

I believe this (you can tell by their behaviour), but these are the children of the past.* I think things are changing for the better.
Statistically many children are born to older parents, who have put a lot more thought into whether they want to be parents or not. Women's role in society has changed (or some of them anyway) so you are less likely to find resentful mothers-by-default who have married to get a home and then found themselves having babies with no chance of a career or any time to themselves.

All this is good. I don't see much evidence of the balance having tipped too far the other way.

*I see this as analogous to conventional crap diets. The fact that people in the 70s and 80s ate the most appalling junk out of tins and packets continuously doesn't make it ok. Many people my age are overweight, have hypertension, all sorts of health problems. You can similarly see the emotional issues resulting from never resolved poor attachment issues. In my own case I see my fatness and attachment issues to be connected, in fact, in emotional eating! the fact that we all remember kids roaming about buying themselves pasties doesn't make either part of that ok.

I was just off looking for a reference for that stat. I got it from an attachment seminar I was at recently.

Anyway, I can't find a ref for adults, but I found this one claiming 40% for children (on p4): www.suttontrust.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/baby-bonds-final.pdf

I too think that the majority of parents are over invested in their children, want to be their best friend, rather than parent them.
I think OP may find some bits hard, but her fundamental idea is not ridiculous.

In my case (and I think for a lot of the posters on this thread) the reason my children didn't just slot in to my existing life is not because they are over indulged or because I want to be their friend.

It's because my DC (one in particular) are bloody difficult. Some kids are just harder and less adaptable/trainable than others.

As an example, both my DC are rubbish sleepers (despite routine, CC etc). So I don't go out much - not because "the DC won't settle without me" (they will) but because I'm knackered!

If you get one of the less adaptable, less trainable sort of children then trying to continue as you were pre DC may be possible but it isn't going to be much fun for anyone.

Children are only really dependent for a very short time and life is long.

I have two children who are 9 and 12, and I can see that the remaining years when I am parenting them as children rather than adults are dwindling.

Looking back I really don't wish I spent less time building sand castles and more time on mini- breaks and less time reading bedtime stories and more time at dinner parties.

Of course my life absolutely revolves around my children because that is the life stage that I am in. Expecting my life to carry on as before would be a bit like emigrating and only ever hanging out with ex pats and eating egg and chips every day.

My babies were not the most velcro ever in the history of the universe, but plenty more than some. I had friends who swanned about with prams, shopping etc; I just couldn't reliably put a baby in a pram and expect her to put up with it for any length of time. I am pretty sure that some people would have dealt with it differently but the way I dealt with it made my life fairly limited in some ways; not attempting too much too ambitious.

I beat myself up about that a lot at the time. But now I'm fine with what I did because I think choosing a happy baby was more important.