To think that children will fit in around OUR lives, not the other way around?

[HonestQuestion]

I am sure I'm going to get flamed for this but maybe there will be some good advice too! (I have NCd)

DH and I were talking last night about how we intend to bring up children. We have seen friends and family where DC rule the roost - everything is organised around the children. The children aren't ever left to their own devices to play; the parents are constantly playing with them and distracting them with activities. The TV is always switched to children's channels, not the news or anything adult. Evenings with the family have to be run on the children's schedule for naps and snacks and feeding.

Even when they are in bed, the mums are held hostage to the DC speaking over the walkout talkie and summoning them to the bedroom plenty of times before they finally go to sleep. We meet up with our friends for lunch or dinner or a day out, and always seem to come home not really having had much of a chat or catch up with our friends - because the day or evening is always all about the children - we all have to be in their thrall!

It seems the experience of raising a child these days is so far removed from how DH and I were brought up. We remember being left to our own devices to play, watching the news and learning about the world from it, we remember that the adults ruled the house - my dad would never have dreamed of having kids' TV on all evening when he got home from work!

And it's so far removed from how we want to raise our children. We don't want to lose 'who we are' and what we find interesting. A friend of ours said on FB the other day that she is going on a mini break and leaving her DC alone overnight for the first time in 3 years! I can't imagine being like that! And I can't imagine having a DC, meeting up with friends but spending that time constantly entertaining the children.

AWBU? I have my hard hat ready...

The wocket isn't describing her children, but her own childhood. I think if you'd asked her parents if putting aside their career dreams in order to move to a child-friendly town with relatives nearby who could support the children in their extra-curricular activities was just having their kids fit into their pre-parenthood lives, they would probably say, along with all the other parents on the thread, that it was a sacrifice, but totally worth it.

Exactly. I'm bemused at the idea that changing your job in your children's interest is now defined as "your children fitting into YOUR life"

Yes, a typo there. I meant to say, 'how you have described your childhood'

Well honest, if you are up for a switch in careers to accommodate your children's needs, then I think you are ready to have your life adapt to your children's needs so not sure what this OP was all about.

OP, I think you are viewing your childhood through the lens of nostalgia. Your principles are fine, I think most go into parenthood wanting to have children who can fit easily with current adult lives and pursuits - after all, we spend our adulthood essentially following paths that suit us best and fullfill us. I'm genuinely curious though - can you see the other side from what you are hearing here? If your child doesn't slot in to your current lifestyle, do you and your partner have flexibility to change your approach. I have a toddler who I've had to make huge changes and adjustments to parent, but it's a privilege to make those compromises and be his mum and I continue to make decisions that help him regardless of how it may be perceived by others (and the judgements come fast). Where will you soften your stance if you aren't parenting the child you think you were? Or do you think your parenting approach will create the behaviours that allow you to make the assertions above?

Still, putting aside your career dreams is not at all "children fit-in-around-our-lives". The stuff you list, dinner with friends, kids tv is superficial bullshit.

Moving town and changing career is really big stuff to change in one's life and means you actually want to fit your life totally around your dc.

Actually, children doing the chores is also indicative of parents who spend a lot of time and effort on their children. A seven year old who can do household chores was once a three year old whose parents let them "help", thus taking around seven times as long to get any task done as it would to have a quick tidy after the children went to bed.

There is a balance to be had. I love my children to bits but didn't make some of the changes other people made to their lives, partly out of necessity and partly out of choice. Of course, when they were first born it was a bit of a shock! My children often came to parties with me with their sleeping bags and bedded down where there was room and I just lifted them up and took them home. Of course there comes a time when they have sports or things early in the morning and compromises have to be made. My children were always heard, they just didn't always get the reply other parents might have given. I never wanted them to have a rigid routine because I wanted them to learn how to be flexible. They've turned out ok, we still love each other, they don't feel hard done by and have become great parents themselves so I feel vindicated. However, if others choose to be different sort of parents, hats off to them. As long as your children turn out to be well adjusted, sociable and independent you've done a good job.

Hopefully you have family nearby who can help and then at least financially you can get by without much change to your lifestyle. I'm the mum of two under 3 and pay 80 pound a day for every day I work to cover childcare. You can't go out late with a young baby. My first would be crying if he was awake. And once to have two you do whatever it takes for an easy life. You will spend about 4 hours a week sorting out washing also!

Changing careers can be tricky also. Maintaining your current career tricky also. No staying later at work so starting early

Oh come on OP, you must by now be seeing that having children is one of those major life changes!! Without pandering to their every whim, you do have to make adjustments. How can you not? You are adding a new person to the family. You have to spend time raising them, drumming in the boundaries time and time again and teaching them acceptable types of behaviour.

I don't pander. If I told my children to do something and they didn't want to, or told them to stop doing something and they wanted to continue, then I would grab them and make sure that what I had said happened. No matter what. No further discussion.

They certainly changed my life from its previous course though. Totally. Being a SAHM was never something I envisaged doing, but the cost of childcare for two and later three of them came to way more than I could earn, so I sacrificed many years of having my own income to raise them. It wasn't easy, but if we wanted to have them then that was what we needed to do.

They can usually be taught to behave in ways which are acceptable to you. You do have to make adjustments to your life though. Things rarely return to exactly how they were pre-babies.

Th point is that when you have children, you are now a different 'family unit' - in the same way that when you were both single, you were individual 'units' and then your 'family unit' became a couple.

When we - and I assume when you - became a couple, there were certain adjustments that were made, or certain decisions, that were 'for the good of the 'family unit'. You were no longer free, and would not want, to apply for long-term jobs at opposite sides of the world, for example, or you might buy a car or a house that meets the 'joint' needs well rather than each individual need perfectly.

It is exactly the same when children join the family unit, IMO. Decisions are made 'to maximise the good and the happiness of the whole', rather than 'to maximise the individual good or happiness of one or a few parts of the whole'. Obviously that is not 100% attainable, 100% of the time - but on average, it is the 'total happiness and wellbeing of the family unit' that is the important thing.

So it does not maximise MY happiness to spend many hours ferrying DD to dancing, or 'enjoy' time by DS's football touchline. But equally, it doesn't maximise the DCs' happiness that we have time-consuming but fulfilling jobs.

So my worry about a couple who start off like the OP - that essentially they will maximise their own good / happiness - is that they may be considering the good / happiness of their future DCs as 'less important than theirs at all times', and therefore not focusing on maximising the happiness / good of the whole family unit. It is, and IMO should always be, a balance.

I work with a girl who has this attitude and I've got to say, from everything I've seen and heard, her kids are stars. Do well at school, polite, etc. She said to me - please remember they need to work around you and not the other way around. Also agree with you OP, I was left to my own devices a lot as a child.

I think the op is quite enjoying this thread . She's got so many of us riled up....one idea is to stop feeding in any more to this....

wocket said she would eventually fall asleep bitter

Why is that something to strive for?

I totally agree with you. I have three children and brought them up to fit into my life. It worked, it works. I find it very irritating when friends interrupt themselves, and break off mid-conversation if their child says anything. It's not correct. Kids come into our lives, not the other way round. We call the shots.

It's just plain rude. The interrupting I mean.

If an adult were to keep interrupting you'd think they were rude. It's not okay for a child to do it. End of. I don't mean shut the child down every time it tries to open its mouth but children should be taught from an early age that interrupting conversations every 10 seconds is rude anyone that doesn't do that and thinks it's okay to keep completely ignoring the other adult they're with to constantly listen to their child every word, is rude too TBH, so what hope does the child have.

Totally agree that it's not only possible, to a certain extent, but makes everyone's life more interesting and more pleasant. We have three kids between 4 and 9; we watch films we all enjoy (classics and comedies) and have always encouraged them to make their own entertainment, sometimes between themselves, sometimes with us invited in. Manners are hugely important too, not in Victorian seen-and-not-heard way, but in a way that if anyone is talking, child or parent or guest, no one interrupts unless it's a genuine emergency. We tend to socialise with parents who feel similarly.

OTOH, it's sometimes v v handy to blame the kids needs when you want to escape early/skip out altogether. Also, particularly when they're young, it's hard to always concentrate on an adult conversation because you do need to check they're safe and not tumbling down some stairs etc. But ours are so hilarious, thoughtful, and fun to be around and we adore them enormously - who knows if this is down to our parenting choices or just who they'd have been anyway.

Good point, homeworkinghubbard. One of the unexpected perks of parenthood for me is no more tedious parties or un-fancied hen-weekends. Boring night at the pub? "Sorry, babysitter texted, child is feeling off" Terrible leaving do drinks for unpopular colleague at work? "Sorry, no babysitter".

Hahhahahahhha I was the same

I knew most about parenting before I conceived!!!

Enjoying this warm discussion. My only thought is that, don't be so overly anxious about losing your old self and ways of being. There's so much NEW on offer. Would be such a waste to miss the opportunity to blow open what you think you already know about life: the kids take you to another place, so don't be too controlling of what happens next.. All the time I thought I was brining up my son, he was accelerating ME. I understand so much more about the human condition, the masculine and feminine, community and society ... through being a parent. The idea of remaining unchanged after all that effort and love, would be quite unthinkable!

Brilliant post, shesaid!

Exactly shesaid! Apart from all the things you discover about yourself and what your limits you are forced to branch out. DH and I found ourselves this summer dangling from trees in Austria doing an Austrian type Go Ape mountaineering thing whilst on holiday. We would NEVER have chosen to have done this (strictly cocktail by the pool and wandering round ruins types plus DH scared of heights), but DDs (9 and 7 loved it). As did we!

Not to mention all the people you meet. Never had so many local neighbourhood friends ever - school age kids plug you into the local community.

"There's a pretty major difference between saying "kids probably won't do what you want just because you've decided ahead of time how you'd like them to behave" and "you should have no life or identity outside of your children ever"."

Absolutely. I have two kids (who are quite delightful, though I may be biased), I also have a career I love, hobbies, go out with DP or friends in the evening, occasional weekends away.

And having kids was still like an unpredictability bomb going off in my nice orderly life, my life certainly revolved around them when they were little (they're now 3 and 6 and a lot more independent but DS1 in particular was a fairly "high needs" baby), and the only reason I get to go out a reasonable amount without them is because I live near a lot of my family.

Haven't RTFT, but OP - I know where you are coming from

However... during my pregnancy and for about 4 or 5 months after dd was born, I kept wondering how long it would be before our lives could get back to normal. Then one day I had a minor revelation. The old normal was gone and this was the new normal. Children change your lives and outlook in more ways than I could have possibly imagined.

Just a word of warning - if you find your DH is adamant that having children will not affect 'his' life in any way, just make sure that he isn't the sort of person to carry on regardless, as if there weren't any children in the house. You might find yourself with 24/7 responsibility while he is at the gym / down the pub / playing golf / out with his mates / away on business - because he can't see why his life should change because of the kids.

Make sure that he is the sort of person who will be happy to stand in a draughty pub garden while the kids play, and you sit inside with family and friends, enjoying your meal. And that he will be happy to stay up half the night with a vomiting toddler when he has an important meeting in the morning, because you are knackered and need to sleep too. And that he won't assume that because you are at home all day (which you will be, with a newborn) that all household business becomes yours, and he can just do nothing when he comes home because he's been busy working all day, and needs a break. You will have been working all day too.

Anyway, enough of all that, enjoy your children, they are only little once.

It won't be all that long before mine will be old enough to take us out and buy us a drink and I'm missing all the 'kid' stuff already.

I think I agree with you OP to some extent. I have a nine month old and one almost four years old and I'm very conscious to raise them to be respectful of adults' time - for example, no interrupting conversations; I have lots of friends with children who can be chatting to me in a normal adult way, but as soon as their offspring runs over, will cut me off to address their needs. I think this is absurd, really rude and teaches a bad lesson. When I go to a play date with my four year old, I fully expect the children to go off and play on their own in the house while the adults chat. I am not a nursery nurse who will sit down with them and play. The children don't want that either! I agree with you about bedtimes too; at a family party, the children have a blast staying up late and if the youngest needs to sleep, that's what the pram/travel cot if for. I believe it's part of bringing up humans who know that the world does not and will not revolve around them. Sadly, a few of our friends with children have very different views and it can create a bit of atmosphere. That's their choice though.