AIBU to think a male paedophile rapist should definitely go to a male prison?

[HermioneWeasley]

And it shouldn't just be "likely"?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-35726292

FFS.

[Hennifer]

'being a woman is all periods and babies'

No. Being a woman is not all periods and babies.

However, periods and babies (giving birth, I should say - not looking after them or conceiving them) are all 'woman'.

That's kind of the point, and you're missing it.

[SleepyBoBo]

This is one of the few instances where someone who identifies as trans should be placed in the prison of their original gender. They used their body to sexually assult, they are a danger to women, they have to be kept far away from them.

On another note, didn't need to read far into this thread for the usual sick bigotry of Mumsnet to rear it's head. The transphobia on this site ranges from worrying to just plain sickening. I really don't know how it hasn't been pulled up on it yet.

[Hennifer]

Anyway I'm intrigued - what exactly is being a woman, then, in your view?

It's not something to do with keeping your elbows in, is it?

Dresses, panties, heels - am I getting close?

[AskBasil]

SleepyBobo, why are you accusing people here of being transphobic when by transactivist standards, you yourself are a horrible transphobe?

[Hamsterpotty]

or that I was entitled to use the word 'nigga' about myself and 'other' black people?

Was this really necessary?

[SpeakNoWords]

Rather than shouting bigot and transphobe, please could those who are not transphobic/bigots explain why what is being said is wrong? I would genuinely like to understand, as I appear to be on the wrong side of history here. I really would like to be able to understand your point of view, and not be worried about the future impact on non-trans women.

[AskBasil]

Windymiller, the ideology isn't even that if a man cuts his penis off, he's a woman (because a woman is just an "un-man").

The ideology now, is that if a man decides he's a woman, he is one.

Penis, beard, violent behaviour and all.

[SleepyBoBo]

SleepyBobo, why are you accusing people here of being transphobic when by transactivist standards, you yourself are a horrible transphobe?

I don't have to agree with all trans-activists do I? Just like not all feminist agree with each other, not all people of the same religion agree with each other, etc

[AskBasil]

Right.

So you have a different definition of a transphobe?

Super.

Just like I have a different definition of a woman.

(My definition is based in reality, rather than feelz)

[Hennifer]

Sorry if I've offended you Hamster. I certainly didn't intend to.

[HermioneWeasley]

sleepy are you suggesting that we now segregate prisons on the basis of crime? So all men in prison who haven't committed sexual assault could be housed with women?

[AdrenalineFudge]

Hennifer Your point is very offensive and nothing to do with this argument.

[Hennifer]

I'm sorry, I didn't realise it was offensive and have asked MNHQ to delete my post.

Could someone let me know what was wrong with it, please? If that's possible without repeating the offensive bit. Thanks.

[emwithme]

He can identify as whichever gender he chooses to.

That doesn't change the fact that the prison estate is separated by (biological) sex. Not gender, which is a social construct and a giant load of bullshit

However, we won't be seeing viral petitions for Ayrton to be transferred like we did Tara Hudson, because Tara was far more "acceptably - visibly - female" despite the fact that they have a 7 inch surprise penis that, according to their escorting site, they enjoy using.

I fully expect to be called a TERF for this view. I disagree with that name. I am not a radical feminist. I will call people by their chosen name, I will (generally) use their preferred pronoun. However, I will not stand idly by when safe spaces for women - particularly those spaces where they cannot leave - are taken over by men, particularly ones who have raped children.

[SleepyBoBo]

SpeakNoWords

Whether he has a penis or not, it doesn't matter - he is a male - always has, and always will be. The whole idea that if a man chops his penis off he magically becomes a woman pisses me off

Unfortunately, I cannot go through the whole thread getting quotes. This one sticks out though as to an example of small-mindedness - as if it's that simple, and the fact anyone dares step outside the person they are 'meant to be' pisses someone off (even if 99% it has no impact on their life).

My friend has a vagina. They identify as male. I call them by male names as this is how they want to be. They will have an operation one day, but it takes years of medication and counselling before that happens. He is happy, for the first time in his life. Living this way means he no longer feels totally wrong, like he wants to die as he hates his physical self so much. Knowing he can change it, makes life worth living. Yet people on here would love to sit him down with their 'feminist' ideology and tell him how he feels is wrong - like having a real vagina is a badge of honour. I would love to know what right some women on here think they have to tell other people how they really think or feel about themselves.

[StitchesInTime]

YANBU.

Someone who is biologically male has no place in a female prison, especially when they're a violent rapist.

It's putting the biologically female inmates at risk.

It's very depressing that so little consideration is given to the safety of women by trans-activists.
Under the self identification system they're pushing for, this violent rapist would have to be legally treated as a woman and be sent to a woman's prison - without having to have any gender reassignment surgery, without having to have any hormone treatment, without having to have any medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria - just on their claim of having self-identified as a woman.

[SpeakNoWords]

I wouldn't dream of telling your friend how to feel or how to refer to themselves or tell them what name to use or what pronouns. I wouldn't say anything to them at all about it unless they wanted to know my opinion. I try very hard when discussing these issues not to use language that is going to offend or enrage people who disagree with me. I'm not bothered at all about how any individual wants to present themselves to the world. I don't conform to the gender role imposed on me by society either, and I wish that more people felt comfortable to do the same.

But I can't accept that they are male in exactly the same way as a non-trans man.

[VinceNoirLovesHowardMoon]

'He identifies as male'
It's not possible to identify as the opposite sex. It's possible (linguistically) to identify as the opposite gender, but that does nothing to change one's sex.

[hazeyjane]

the usual sick bigotry of Mumsnet to rear it's head

Where?

[VinceNoirLovesHowardMoon]

I have no problem with your friend identifying as a trans man and support his right to do so. I just don't agree that makes him as much a man as my dad or brothers wh are male and were raised as boys and men. I don't believe gender is innate and immutable, and my understanding of the words 'man' and 'woman' do not allow for a female person raised as a girl to be defined as a man.

[LoveBoursin]

A question re what makes a person transgender.

I have read not that long ago that being transgender is a spectrum and that spectrum goes from liking to dress in women's clothes (maybe for a sexual kink) but carrying on living as man otherwise up to having reconstructive surgery and living as a woman.
It also seems that some people see crossdressing as a first step towards to surgery and accepting yourself as transgender whilst others say that 'well it's a spectrum. Some peole will never go further than cross dressing'.

Now I can accept that someone who has had surgery shoud be treated fully as a woman (incl the fact that women's opinions are generally not considered as important etc etc) but should someone who is simply cross dressing be treated as a woman when in all other areas of their life's they act and present as a man?

And if you don't, where do you out the limit as to when we should consider a transwoman shpiuld be treated aas a 'woman' rather than a 'man'?

[LoveBoursin]

Actually I think we should say that a tranman indentify as a transman rather than a man (for gender purposes) and a transwoman identify as a transowman rather than a woman.

I agree that, even if you do try and want to identify as much as possible with the opposite gender, it is not possible to fully 'be' that gender.
For me, the best comparaison is for me to have lived in the UK for 20 years. I also have pass the citizenship test to become British. However, even after 20 years trying to 'be' British, I'm not. I can mix easily with people, I understand a lot of the things going on, the culture etc... but I am not British. Does that make sense?

[HermioneWeasley]

sleepy I have trans friends and colleagues. I use their chosen names and pronouns. But if one of them pressed me and said "do you think I'm female" I would have to be honest and say no. "Female" is a biological term and no man can ever be female. My trans friends will never experience the issues that women's biology brings, in the same way I have no idea how gender dysphoria feels.

This is a non issue for the trans people I know, because they're not delusional and they are respectful of women.

[Tabsicle]

Honestly, I don't, on a personal level, care hugely about the well-being of one probably quite unpleasant person. I do, however, care about the thousands of perfectly innocent trans men and trans women who are affected by legal rulings which say 'your gender is not real' which is massively damaging and I do care about a ruling which says 'if you are part of this minority group and commit a crime then you will be punished above and beyond the normal legal sanctions because of the minority group you are a part of'. Trans women in male prisons are, statistically, massively likely to be assaulted/sexually abused and I don't think that anyone deserves that. Not this woman and definitely not other trans women who haven't committed a sexual crime but would be affected by this ruling.

Basically, I like consistency in these things. And I think respecting gender identity consisting overall makes the world a better and happier place for more people.

[SleepyBoBo]

You know what, it's fine if people on here cannot respect people as they are. That's ok - it's just a case of history repeating itself.

Women we're not seen equal to men
Black people were not quite the same as white
Gay people were lesser and straight

And now society cannot quite accept trans people as who they are. Yes there are issues, 'safe spaces', prison sentences, the definitions of what it is to be male/female, but I hope that one day that society can move forward again beyond the small-minded people who have decided that they 'know man means man and woman means woman'. At one point only being straight was acceptable as well, the thought of being gay was awful, the fear mongering over rape, HIV, saying it was all in the mind, it was a choice etc. Only time will tell if people stop using the same scare tactics over transgender people as well.