AIBU to think a male paedophile rapist should definitely go to a male prison?

[HermioneWeasley]

And it shouldn't just be "likely"?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-35726292

FFS.

[WandaFuca]

slippery - I think Hermione has put it very well. Intersex is rare. And it's often because there's confusion about the genitalia at birth. These days, DNA analysis can show if it's an XX or XY baby, and hormone therapy can be used to assist that baby grow up in their biological sex.

Intersex is something of a red herring that gets thrown about by transactivists. It doesn't have anything to do with born-males, raised-males, subsequently deciding to be a woman and demanding access to women-only spaces.

[WandaFuca]

Hermione - I've just Ctrl-F, and that was the post by Vince (Fri 04-Mar-16 22:38:48). That's absolutely heartbreaking that a woman's right to safety and recovery, when she is at her most vulnerable, is being ignored in the name of political correctness.

It is madness, and we do need to stop this.

Going a bit off-topic: I haven't felt as passionate about a cause since the time I gave birth (almost 40 years ago) when I subsequently learned that the doctors' union, the Medical Defence Union, stated unequivocally that a pregnant women implicitly gave consent to everything the moment she set foot over the threshold of the maternity unit, so no need to explain what they were doing to me or why. That does seem to have got somewhat better in recent times, but there still seems to be the attitude that women (menstrual/menopausal/labouring) can be dismissed, because, you know, it's our hormones. That's a dismissal that a transwoman could never experience, so in what way can a transwoman actually know what it was like to be me?

[HermioneWeasley]

wanda that has yet to be explained because if you ever ask a question about women's biology the answer is "oh so you're saying women are nothing but a vagina - you think like a RAPIST" or "you're obsessed with what's in people's pants - that's a fetish" or "oh, I'd love to have periods - it's really triggering for you to talk about them". Instead of understanding that the only reason women experience inequality and oppression is our biology, not our ladybrains.

[BarefootAcrossHotLegoPieces]

"the only reason women experience inequality and oppression is our biology, not our ladybrains."

Well put.

[BeyondTellsEveryoneRealFacts]

Wanda, the worst bit was, it was part of her delusion that male people were out to harm her. To the extent she was scared of her DP. Yet the mtt persons delusion that they are female 'won'

Delusion olympics...

[WandaFuca]

I've been rendered speechless, Beyond. I can't figure out what on earth to say about such a situation, even though I've been thinking about it since I read your post. How on earth can a transperson, with all the physical advantages that male biology conveys, trump the needs of a vulnerable female who fears men? That absolutely beggars belief, but it is believable.

I actually had to post on a couple of other threads, which are mostly normal yet inconsequential, before I could come back to this one, just to kind of clear my mind before figuring out how to respond.

How long will it take for the point to be reached that being politically correct about the treatment of transgender people actually puts women at risk? Does there need to be a statistically "interesting" number of assaults/deaths?

As a PS: Kudos to MNHQ for allowing threads like this, and many others, to continue. We do need to talk about this freely.

[PosieReturningParker]

www.walesartsreview.org/international-womens-day-reclaiming-women/

Worthy of your time

[WandaFuca]

Excellent article, Posie.

"...no other subordinate group has ever before been obliged to redefine themselves in order to let in members of the dominant group and allow them, once there, to start setting terms."

[Paddletonio]

I can't describe what a relief it's been to read through this thread and see how many others have the same concerns as I do. I've only recently become aware of this issue - like others I assumed transgender meant hormones, surgery etc not just "self identification". I've had an awkward discussion with an MTF friend of friend on Facebook who was explaining (can I say mansplaining...) the whole business to me, claiming the only answer to what makes someone male or female is "it's how they identify" and that we should ignore biology when deeming someone a woman. I just absolutely cannot accept that. It doesn't make sense. Thank you, so many of you, for vocalising why. It's been insinuated that my doubts about this are bigoted, transphobic etc but I don't think that's fair. I've been berated by a man for "pulling the ladder up behind me" after I've benefitted from equality ( gee thanks should we feel grateful to the men for now treating us equally! Clearly he is blind to the inequality that still very much exists.) This all seems like elaborate gas lighting to erode women's rights. Going to read through the various links.

[BiologicalCrayon]

Paddle gas lighting is exactly what it is. I'm chilled to the core that the women's minister, the BBC and the guardian to name a few are complicit in this. There are many, many people concerned by this, but it's hard for us to see each other as debate is suppressed.

If it was reported honestly and in an unbiased way, the public would be up in arms about these proposals.

[ClaudiaApfelstrudel]

I think the more I read about this the more I'm starting to doubt this 'trans' thing

[msrisotto]

Do trans women avoid prostate exams and other sex specific health check ups?

[StitchesInTime]

Do trans women avoid prostate exams and other sex specific health check ups?

Not sure if you meant that seriously - but - if people can self identity as whatever gender they like, and it's transphobic to enquire about their biological sex, could there be potential issues around making sure the right people are being invited to screening programs aimed at a particular biological sex?

[Happyrouter]

Indeed! And I've said (although lose where I think) that it's just as important for trans individuals as for women that this distinction is made so they have the correct and appropriate services and facilities for their specific requirements that are not always the same as women's requirements.

[msrisotto]

Yeah I was being serious. They could be putting themselves in danger.

[NowtSalamander]

I've written to my MP. I've written to numerous newspapers. No one wants to know. This stuff has really opened my eyes - thanks mumsnet. Can I also recommend the wonderful people on the transgender trend website and 4thwavenow. They are particularly interesting if (like me) you have non gender conforming children. And are terrified.

[MrsJamin]

There is a secret Facebook group which is available for chat about these issues, pm me if you would like an invite.

[AskBasil]

I think this is worth watching.

[StepAwayFromTheThesaurus]

I wonder if the hospital wards issue isn't actually the thing that will start the whole thing unraveling. It simply brings us back to mixed sex wards, and we all know how popular that was.

The thing is most of us took it for granted that transgender politics were a progressive movement and it would be bigoted to oppose it until we were encouraged to examine the issue at all. Similarly, I think there are a lot of people who don't want to make life hard for a minority group who might start to feel very differently when very obviously male (in the 3D sex sense) people using women's names start turning up in hospital wards in the bed next to them/their friends/their mother/their auntie Mavis and so on. At that point they may well want to reexamine things and complain very loudly.

In the 21st century we've all been very well socialised to want to avoid any hint of an accusation of bigotry (this is especially true for people of my generation who've had a university education, particularly in the humanities and social sciences) and it's perfectly possible for groups to purposefully use that to their own advantage. Maybe once things really start to piss off people who are less socialised in this way (and who don't care about, for example, prisoners), things will start to change.

[PenguinVox]

Thanks for linking that video AskBasil. It is definitely worth watching.

[Lariflete]

I am all for people identifying however they want, but if they haven't been through gender re-assignment surgery then I do firmly believe that they are the sex they were born.
As soon as they have gender re-assignment then they are no longer transgender, just male or female.

[SpeakNoWords]

Lariflete, would you consider it reasonable and fair for a post-op male-to-trans woman to compete in sports such as athletics against women? Or perhaps in basketball, like in this US college womens team?

[ClaudiaApfelstrudel]

what if that tall woman was a natal woman?

[SpeakNoWords]

How likely is that ever to happen? Extremely unusual, but if it did occur, then as a woman, they would have a different skeletal structure for one, plus other physical differences. They would have height as an advantage, but not the other advantages that come from being physiologically male.

The point is that a male-to-trans woman would not have to be excessively tall for a man, to have an easy height advantage over nearly all the female players.

[BombadierFritz]

Google tells me ave height for women basketball players is 5'10, for men its 6'7. Totes the same obvs