cultural appropriation

[nceccoli]

Just had a discussion. aibu to say that cultural appropriation works both ways? A number of black bloggers and models have slated Kim Kardashian and Kylie jenner for wearing "boxer braids". But I have yet to see anyone commenting on Beyonce culturally appropriate Indian culture , hairstyle, dress and adornment for her song Hymn for the Weekend?

BadDoGooder

despite my rather bitchy remark about white ppl with dreadlocks i knew that would come bite me

what I find really offensive is people who deny this happens- deny white privilege- deny it exists and then compare it to something innocuous

*Oh matilda has plaits, don't tell me that's - sheesh"

they are denying a huge chick of history, and denying actual statistics

that's offensive, and actually a bit scary

not your hair

Ah thanks, I'm feeling a bit better about it
I would never, ever deny someones lived/cultural/historical experiences, of their right to feel a certain way about something bloody lefty that I am and I know people do minimise to make themselves feel better.

That's why I was asking so many questions, as I really hate the thought of walking down the street and literally offending someone with my appearence!!

I totally see how, in recent culture, things that were considered "black" (hairstyles/music etc) have only become more "acceptable" and "mainstream" once appropiated by white culture. That would piss me off too, completely.
What's the answer though?
Should all people just stick to their own cultures entirely? (being quite tongue in cheek here obvs!)
Would that mean I'd have to stop eating all those lovely veggie curries and go back to suet pudding?!

Yeah that's the one. Like I said, not perfect but a fair introduction.

ah don't fret, I regret being really bitchy earlier

better a lefty than a bitch

"better a lefty than a bitch"
I'm getting that tattooed on my chest!!

And you weren't being bitchy I don't think, just rightly angry about a subject that even commited lefty types like me struggle to get their heads round/get defensive when presented with uncomfortable truths!

However the right to offend is a hugely important right which protects so many minorities and others. If we silence people saying things that offend us then we end being like in Saudi or in a China with the internet censored. That is never the route to freedom.

People have the right in the UK to do things like wear dresses if they are man, put on a burka even if not mulsim, sunbathe with very little on the beach, dye their hair any colour they choose etc. Yes sometimes something we do might offend someone but as long as keep within the law we can carry on.

That does not mean we don't realise that some groups (women more than non whites in my view inthe UK by the way) are discriminated against - of course they are and I hope most of us fight every day to stop that discrimination. I certainly try to.

However the right to offend is a hugely important right

yay! you know what I am going out tonight with my "Burkah" porn outfit, with an afro wig , a red spot on my forehead and a bone through my nose

Katenka if your daughter was to become a lawyer or an accountant would consider her braids ok for work? When I say braids I would include box braids or cornrows and not french plates because they are looked at in two different ways.

Ladycrazy your view would be cultural appreciation. Your intention was not to imitate. When some people use other culture to prove their coolness or how edgy they are I think that is where you get a problem. The best one I can remember is one of the kardashian with their cornrows. I also do think that before David Beckham wore his most people didn't think it was cool.

From my school days a lot of black girls who braided their hair didn't do it out styles but out of necessity. Easy to manage and less damage to the hair too. The other option would have been to relax it and it's more harmful to human health and can easily lead to boldness.

It's laughable when people talk about Egypt like its not in the continent of Africa.

The Native American headdress.
The last debate I heard was when pharrel williams wore one and he explained how he had a Native American side. I at that point thought well that should clear that up then because it was his heritage. However, when I read the context and why the headdress was important. I changed my view because even a Native American who was not chosen would not have won it. The conclusion to that is pharrel was disrespectful to his own culture even though a lot of people would consider him more black than Native American.

With the hymn for the weekend the most comments which I thought was sound was that Beyoncé did not use the correct hand gestures. They were meaningless to the people in the culture she was portraying. That is an insult in itself to the culture. In that same article they didn't mind about the dress she was wearing but they also said the headdress was wrong. I think if I remember correctly, they said it was Arabian. The person who produced the video was of Indian decent and tried not to offend but they still failed.

The one thing They did do was have her not wear a bindi. I also think that the naivety showed because they thought if they didn't use the bindi, sari and use Beyoncé own hand gestures would have been ok but I think that is where it backfired.

On the internet most of the backlash was the portrayal of India in general and western perception of what India should look like. There were people who praised it and said that it was good for advertising for India because it did not show anything negative.

I personally think the Native American headress issue is very simple compared to some other aspects of this debate.
It is very important, has a very special status and is only given to very select members of the tribe.
I don't think it is right to wear it as fancy dress under any circumstances.
(and don't get me started on the whole "cowboys and indians" thing, how did mass genocide become a subject for childrens games and terribly minimising films??!)

I think the whole idea some people have that doing anything started by another culture is CA is damaging to multiculturism and integration, it's setting up clear sides are trying to fit people into boxes that maybe they don't fit into or don't want to go in

I absolutely agree with this statement. However, at the same time you don't want people insulting another culture by turning it into a gimmick when it means so much or has a lot of meaning to them. The same way we wouldn't be allowed to make fun of other religious groups which it self is right not to do so.

Katenka if your daughter was to become a lawyer or an accountant would consider her braids ok for work? When I say braids I would include box braids or cornrows and not french plates because they are looked at in two different ways.

Um yes some days she may braid her hair if she was going kick boxing after work. Are you suggesting accountants and lawyers have never worn a plait?

It's laughable when people talk about Egypt like its not in the continent of Africa.
Did anyone say it wasn't?

Ancient Egyptians culture is very different to the rest of Africa. There still debate on what race they were.

I thought it was nice the Kardashian women have braids as it looks like her daughter has afro hair so nice for her to see natural styles she can do herself.

I think on black bloggers websites that I have read and their biggest issue with that family is that they are using features that would have been deemed ugly and not fashionable because it's a black thing. they are being accepted by the media. One of the things I here being talked about a lot is the big bum and big lips. Having cornrows in specific. Black women have been laughed at for centuries for having big bottoms. Now she is breaking the Internet.

Um yes some days she may braid her hair if she was going kick boxing after work. Are you suggesting accountants and lawyers have never worn a plait?
There are different types of plates. The one probably am thinking of is similar to what Beyoncé has on the cover of garage magazine. I do remember I lawyer suing her law firm because she was told she could not just wear her hair in African style nor the clothing too. I know that the advice my friend was given when going to an interview to Cambridge was that she should lock like she was wiling to conform and that included her hair too. This was for her interview.

I will try and find the link to that news report regarding the woman because I thought it was interesting what people think it right and what is a necessity.

I did read recently about offence being caused by "culinary culture appropriation" . Eg a Chinese chicken pizza would be inappropriate. I was wondering about "fusion food" then. If it's in the freezer cabinet, it's an insult, if it's gourmet it's progress.

I am on the app and can not post links, or rather don't know how.

Boxer braids are two or more French plaits. That's what's started the kardashian bit. Like Dutch braids.

Used by females boxers all over the world

In fact I have a photo of my nana as a young girl with two braids. The same hairstyle dd has for kick boxing now.

She was taught by her own nana. The girls and women in My family have been braiding their hair for well over 100 years probably longer.

I was doing my sister's hair like that for school in the late 80s.

It was called an 'inside out French Plat' in our area.
There was no google or anything to tell us that we were appropriating any culture, Dutch, Black or otherwise.
It was just a twist on the standard french plat to us.

That's my point. If anything the kardashians girls are guilty of appropriating Dutch braids. While I do not deny that there has been appropriation of black culture and hairstyles on other occasions, it does seem arrogant and reactionary to claim this as appropriation. Braids are not owned by black culture or perhaps braids of this style is not owned by black culture. Kylie jenner had previously sported corn rows and was slated for that which may be fair enough as corn rows are a culturally black hairstyle.

We called it a reverse plait. Plaited the other way round so it stood up.

Maryz Whereas black kids are allowed to have plaits/braids/dreads/weaves/shaven heads and dye their hair different colours, as it's part of their culture.

I don't think they should be allowed to dye it or use differ t colour braids apart from black and brown.

Shaving the hair and braiding is a life saver you have no idea (saying this just in case your not black). I think the weaves they will be in the same fashion as the other kids hair.

I think people are confusing what an black box braids look like , cornrows and French plates.