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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

cultural appropriation

272 replies

nceccoli · 26/02/2016 01:07

Just had a discussion. aibu to say that cultural appropriation works both ways? A number of black bloggers and models have slated Kim Kardashian and Kylie jenner for wearing "boxer braids". But I have yet to see anyone commenting on Beyonce culturally appropriate Indian culture , hairstyle, dress and adornment for her song Hymn for the Weekend?

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Lanark2 · 26/02/2016 05:51

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Fauchelevent · 26/02/2016 05:57

Why are people on this thread going on about plaits and hypothetically offering links when no one on this thread has even said they have a problem with it?

Tootsiepops · 26/02/2016 05:59

Massive eye rolling at all the white people coming along to tell other nationalities, ethnicities etc what is and isn't cultural appropriation. It's so fucking BORING how white people react to having their racist / thoughtless behaviours challenged.

Some (white) people also need to learn more about the emotional labour involved for people of colour in constantly having to explain racism and their lived experiences to their white friends.

I'm leaving this here in the hope that someone learns something.

goodmenproject.com/featured-content/white-fragility-why-its-so-hard-to-talk-to-white-people-about-racism-twlm/

m.huffpost.com/us/entry/white-fragility-is-racial_b_8151054.html

NickiFury · 26/02/2016 05:59

The person who did my henna was an Arabic woman in the UAE.

Can you clarify? Are you saying that anyone who willingly shares aspects of their culture in this way is only doing it because they don't actually realise how oppressed they are and have been?

NickiFury · 26/02/2016 06:02

And Tootsie if you're referring to my post about my friends. Our conversations tend to be along the lines of why I would feel comfortable holidaying in Florida and they wouldn't. It kind of just crops up in the course of, you know, every day conversation.

woollytights · 26/02/2016 06:13

Telling anyone they cannot do something because of the colour of their skin feeds into the problem of racism, whatever colour they might be.

SlinkyVagabond · 26/02/2016 06:24

I know my Latina dil gets fed up with the appropriation of the whole Dios de muertos trendiness.(tattoos etc)

OTheHugeManatee · 26/02/2016 06:31

I can see how there are contexts where adopting things from different cultures could feel insensitive and crass. But policing every act of cultural transmission as an appropriative act surely ends up creating and reinforcing ethnic divisions. Which seems quite a good definition of 'racist' to me.

Ladycrazycat · 26/02/2016 06:42

Nicki I agree it looks beautiful and I have had it done several times. No idea if it would be considered CA.

I find it really difficult - I would never do anything to purposefully insult or offend someone or their culture but am sometimes surprised with what is considered CA, especially when the opinion on something Being CA seems to have been made by someone from outside that culture.

As I visit India a lot, this is where it comes up for me time and time again. Celebrities wearing a bindi has been considered highly offensive by some, yet when I have been to India I have been encouraged on numerous occasions to wear one, from those who are rich to those who are poor, in a commercial environment through to a religious one and also by friends for fun or through taking part in cultural celebrations. Yet the Universal Society for Hinduism states it offensive so who do I listen to as someone who is trying to appreciate not appropriate the culture?

The braid argument in general I understand a bit more due to, as I understand it, the history of black slaves (and I'm sure it stretches beyond the times of slavery), being made to wear their hair in certain styles or made to feel their hair wasn't good enough and encouraged to make it more white.

What really angered me a couple of years back was when newspapers and people on social media started commenting negatively about Beyoncé and Jay Z's daughter's hair. Seriously how is that appropriate? She was a two year old and had absolutely beautiful hair which had been left looking natural rather than being overly styled or tied back. There were comments such as she needs to get her hair braided or weaved! The negativity was a sad reflection of society from so many angles!

Katenka · 26/02/2016 06:55

This is where I get confused.

I braided my hair from being very young. It's too short now and braided my daughters hair everyday for school. It kept it out of her way, neat and tidy.

She know braids it for kickboxing as she can get her head guard on better than when it's in a pony tale.

Braiding has been around forever and isn't owned by any culture or race.

I can see why people feel wearing head dresses can be offensive. But do not understand it all when it comes to hair styles like this.

As it goes, I have had my hands hennaed at celebrations I have been invited to by Muslim friends. And Indian friend gave my dd a pack of stick on bindis for one of their celebrations.

Dds hands were hennaed when we were invited to celebrate eid with a friend and their family, and her catholic school thought it was fabulous and she did a talk about it. I did check with the school as temporary tattoos were banned. No one made her feel she had done something bad.

Katenka · 26/02/2016 06:58

Sorry forgot say I wonder if this is like 'schools to ban nativity to keep Muslims happy' type rubbish that comes up.

Something that's spread on the net and media, but isn't a reflection of real life. I have never met anyone of any religion that expects schools to stop doing the nativity because it's offensive.

OTheHugeManatee · 26/02/2016 07:00

Wasn't there a university in Canada that banned yoga classes for being 'cultural appropriation'?

Ladycrazycat · 26/02/2016 07:01

Katenka this confuses me as well. I have plaited my hair a lot in my life and if I had a daughter then I imagine I would plait her hair too.

There are styles which I think are perhaps associated with slavery more than others such as corn rows and I think this is where there is a bigger issue. i may be way of the mark so please correct me if I'm wrong!

By the way I'm not meaning to offend in anything I say - just trying to have a greater understand of an issue I find interesting and confusing.

theycallmemellojello · 26/02/2016 07:06

Ehh my Facebook feed was full of articles criticising Beyoncé for that video a few weeks ago. It's the only thing I've heard about it!

Ladycrazycat · 26/02/2016 07:06

Getting carried away now so sorry about my rapid posting. I Was just thinking back to my early teenage years and used to watch a lot of programmes like Sister Sister and Moesha and wanted my hair in very thin braids like some of the black actresses in the programmes. I wanted it like that because I thought it was beautiful. I see now that this would probably be considered CA but I really didn't mean any offence by it.

Katenka · 26/02/2016 07:06

lady I don't know because Egyptian men and women also used to braid their hair in a similar way to corn rows. So I don't know how far back you can go for a race to claim it's 'theirs'.

My Instagram is full on non Christians giving stuff up for lent. Some have no clue what lent is about, or why people give things up. They are doing it because other people are and to show how much will power they have.

Can't help but wonder if some Catholics would find this as offensive.

iloveeverykindofcat · 26/02/2016 07:09

Speaking as both a mixed race woman and a lecturer in media and cultural studies, it isn't true that t cultural appropriation is a one-way phenomenon. Former colonized peoples are and always have been complicit in marketing our own culture and heritage - but that's inevitable given the global economy situation. We also internalize stereotypes and re-market them. It's a well-documented product of dependency theory. That doesn't make it okay for White people to participate in these transactions - though I don't believe all cultural exchange and sharing is appropriation by any stretch of imagination. All cultures are hybrids, never moreso than today. Hair, however, especially women's hair, has a long and fraught racist history. It absolutely isn't okay for White people to appropriate dreadlocks and still benefit from the massive cultural privileged of their skin colour, whilst a Black person with dreads is subject to all manner of discrimination.

Katenka · 26/02/2016 07:15

t absolutely isn't okay for White people to appropriate dreadlocks and still benefit from the massive cultural privileged of their skin colour, whilst a Black person with dreads is subject to all manner of discrimination.

yea this is an issue. Although, living in some what if a bubble of my own social group and work group. I had thought/hoped that a black person being judged on their hair style if choice was long gone.

In my last place of work it definitely wasn't judged. There was all sorts of hairstyles from people of lots of different races and no one batted an eyelid.

Ladycrazycat · 26/02/2016 07:15

lady that's a good point about Egyptians.

I think the giving up for lent thing is lovely and similar to the fact that I will mark the end of Eid or the last day of Diwali by eating a huge feast of the special Indian foods our local supermarket gets in especially for the occasion (I'm lucky to live in a multicultural area) or will celebrate Chinese New Year with appropriate food/visiting a parade if there is one. I also like to go to Trafalgar Square for the special events they put on there like the one honouring Vasakhu (Punjabi new year) or Turkish culture. Similarly it's lovely when everyone in our local Tesco Express wishes each other a Merry Christmas regardless of religion, colour e.t.c...

Personally I feel our lives our enriched by learning about and experiencing even small parts of other cultures.

Ubik1 · 26/02/2016 07:17

What is 'cultural appropriation?'

I didn't think that cultures came in little neat boxes for people to open and adopt.

Is practising yoga a firm of cultural appropriation? What are the rules?

Ubik1 · 26/02/2016 07:19

Oh - just X post

It's about hair.

Katenka · 26/02/2016 07:19

lady I agree. During Ramadan at work, when fast broke I used to book a break for the team members who were Muslim to eat. They always shared out the food with non Muslim members. At first I felt uncomfortable. Because they hadn't eaten all day but I had. But it was important to them that the whole team took part.

It was lovely to have everyone together eating. By the end of eid every team member was bringing some food in and we shared everything. It actually did some good for us all as a team and improved the work. It was wonderful. I loved it.

Katenka · 26/02/2016 07:20

Sorry that should say 'by eid' not 'by the end of eid'

Ladycrazycat · 26/02/2016 07:24

My last post should have said Vasakhi (auto correct).

ilove I am probably a bit naive when it comes to this due to where I live, work and socialise as I haven't witnessed different treatments due to hair styles, I'm sure it does happen though.

I was shocked to hear a few years back about a friend whose family moved to a village about 30 miles from London in the early 90s and a village meeting was held where people were reassured about the fact a black man was moving in with the fact that he was married to a white woman and they seem like a lovely family. That was a huge eye opener to me!

nonamenopackdrill · 26/02/2016 07:32

A general rule of thumb - will this cause offense to others? Yes (in which case, best not to do it)/no - if you are sure - go ahead.

Supporting people fasting for Ramadan is the opposite of CA, it is a postive message of cultural understanding and support. CA in that sort of instance would be more about using a prayer mat for your living room, type of thing.

I used to work in a Labour council in the 1980s and we were always being cited in the Sun etc for 'political correctness gone mad' eg banning Baa Baa black sheep in schools, etc. It was all made up nonsense, but really served to further marginalise those who thought that anyone that wasn't white should have a voice.