re: 4 year old DD and gender identity

[herethereandeverywhere]

Sorry, have posted here for traffic, not sure where else it should be.

[trying to avoid drip feed, sorry if long]

DD2 is 4 next month. She wants to be a boy. If I ask 'Are you are girl or a boy?" she answers "I'm a girl but I want to be a boy". She selected lots of 'boy' toys for Xmas like fancy dress outfits of male characters. All of this I'm comfortable with. I was very 'ant-pink' with DD1 but as soon as she hit about 2.5 and started mixing with other kids it was Disney princesses and pink sparkles all the way. So DD2 was raised in a fairly universal environment of choose what you want.

Summer last year (just after I'd bought several dresses in the sale in time for holidays) she declared she would no longer wear dresses. This has moved on to any item that looks remotely female. I have replaced her princess knickers with pirate underpants, ditto socks. There is no way she'll wear any of DD's hand me down tops with 'girly' motifs on them. when I take her for new shoes she selects the 'boy' style. I have been fine with this and was pleased she was finding her own identity. She'd been shy-er and quieter than DD1 and I saw this as her coming out of her shell, being her own person.

The issue at the moment is her hair. It's currently past shoulder length and for the last week she has been going nuts when I try to tie it back, screaming 'no ponytail'. She says she wants 'boys hair'. Today she literally screamed the place down for 10 minutes and was sobbing, utterly heartbroken. I'd been hoping she just forgot about the hair thing but it's getting worse.

I really don't want to cut her hair off - it would take so long to grow back. Until now her choices have all been instantly removable (clothes/toys) if she moved on from this, but a short hair cut is something else.

So, I suppose it's AIBU about the hair - but more importantly: is this normal? How far do I let it go? has anyone else experienced similar and what did you do/say? I'm not afraid of having a transgender child but it seems wrong to be expressing what she's doing/saying in those terms when she's not yet 4.

99% of my 2yo sons friends are girls. The other day he was with 3 girls they all put on princess dresses at their toddler group. Ds wanted to be like his friends so he put on a dress too. He loves "girl" toys and the other day he realised invading pink nails and asked me to Do his too which I did. I'm not concerned about it, if it makes him happy why not, it doesn't mean he's going to grow up to be transgender or gay (not that I have a problem if he does). I used to be a proper Tom boy but it's never affected me.
Let her have her hair cut into a bob or similar, I don't really see why it's an issue tbh.

Ha, cross post. Slow typing here today!

I'd cut it OP. Less knots, for one thing! Quicker to maintain too.

Why do you feel the need to ask her 'are you a girl or a boy'?

This.
Surely it will just confuse her?

My DD2 was the same, described herself as a boy for a while (aged 3-4) and would correct us if we used 'she' instead of 'he'. We didn't change anything, carried on letting her choose clothes and hairstyles, would check with her occasionally if we were talking about her in her presence which pronoun she wanted us to use. We didn't think in terms of transgender and have always had a wide range of toys, books etc. We try always not to limit what our two DDs have access to or are encouraged to do along gender lines. We did wonder if it was a way of differentiating herself from DD1, who is 20mths older. DD2 stopped describing herself as a boy not long before starting school and hasn't since, if anything she subscribes more now to female stereotypes than DD1 (although that may be because DD1 is more focused on trying to please me!). She does still experiment with her identity though, when she started school she insisted on being called by her whole name instead of the diminutive we've always used, and she came up with another version of her name for a recent holiday.

So, in a nutshell, I would say don't worry about it, let her choose her haircut, don't rush to fit her into narrow versions of either gender role. It would be enormously helpful for all kids if we could accept that there are lots of different ways of being a boy or a girl, rather than letting them feel that they've failed in one identity and need to seek refuge in another.

Only1scoop

Who are you asking if it's a boy or a girl? Please use quotes. It's very confusing.

At this stage children observe how boys and girls seem to have very defined characteristics and she associates them to gender.

I'd simply let her dress and wear her hair like she wants and tell her that girls and boys can dress and play and have their hair like they want.
Point out to girls/women who have short hair, dress in ungendered clothes and have short hair. And men who are the opposite. And take the genders out of their stereotypical boxes.
If she does feel like a boy in 10 or more years, then it's a different thing.

Sorry, I think you're trying to fit her into the this trendy transgender mould. I too am puzzled as to why you would even think to ask her if she's a girl or a boy.

As a young child I played with "boys toys" (Micro Machines, Transformers, Ghostbusters, Lego), didn't like dresses, hated anything "girly" and had a shoulder length haircut. But my mum never asked me "are you a boy or a girl?" and I never expressed a desire to "be a boy", because my mum never made me feel that I was "boyish" for liking the things I liked. As a pp said, you seem to have quite rigid ideas about gender so I'd wager that because she doesn't like princesses and pink you've immediately jumped to "omg she must be a boy". I also fail to see the correlation between not wanting a ponytail and therefore wanting "boy's hair". Maybe she just doesn't like ponytails? (Those fuckers can pull and be quite painful if tight.)

Just tell her that she can like whatever she likes, her toys / clothes etc are for boys AND girls, and she's perfect the way she is. No drama, no sticking ridiculous labels on her.

Gender identity is still quite fluid at this age you are placing too much emphasis on what she is saying. She's only just beyond the age when they still think they can change gender when they grow up, so you are interpreting her statement in a way that is well beyond her comprehension. Focus on not assigning gender to toys etc and let her cut her hair. I always had short hair when I was young - much easier to manage and it's taken me years to convince my eldest dd to have a bob and she loves it short now.

Regarding her hair, if you don't want to cut it but she won't let you tie it up, can you not just brush it and leave it down as it is?

The Op asks her daughter the question and I was asking her why?

My short haired boy got nits 3 times at primary school. Having a pony tail isn't a preventative.

Just cut her hair, then she won't be upset!

And I had short hair for years. Even went to a barber to get it cut in my teens because it was vastly cheaper than a hairdresser and it was, effectively, a boy's cut. My parents weren't impressed with my flat top at 15 but I liked it.

I would have short hair now but it's so thin it would look awful. And I think I'm too fat to get away with it.

Sounds totally normal to me. She's just being a four year old.

Ohshutup re: who's given her the idea she can change? = no-one.

She always chooses boy names when she plays and boy characters etc for fancy dress. So I was curious to understand whether she was pretending to be a boy, wanted to be a boy, or thought she was a boy. As many have said she's 4 so the question can't matter that much at this stage. No more than asking what her favourite icecream is or which TV character she wants to be (=Miles from Tomorrow).

I just want her to stop getting so upset about clothes and hair - I've tried pointing out pink is for everyone e.g.: daddy has a pink polo shirt, boys including pirates have long hair. She is not a child that is quick to get emotional about things in general.

And for years I've correct DD1 as she refers to things 'for girls' and 'for boys' and I've been at pains to point out they are for everyone.

Your child is clumsily trying to express that she likes trousers, cars and pirates. In our mixed up society she think that equates to "being a boy"

She doesn't like pink glitter or princess crap. She thinks if she answers your question "I'm a girl" it means "I love pink"

It has nothing to do with sex or gender she is just struggling to understand girls can like pirates.

My friends daughter was the same, got the hair cut etc etc which looked better than we were expecting. She is now 6 and suddenly happy being a girl again. I think as she has transitioned from 4yr to 6yrs she can better understand that she is a girl BUT she can play and wear anything. She now dresses in trousers and skirts equally, her hair has grown and she loves ALL toys.

I'm so glad I was born in the 80s. My hair was short, I never played with girls toys, I rolled around in the mud and had play fights with swords/guns/sticks. I started puberty really early and had massive tantrums when I had to wear a bra as I hated them. everyone just let me be, I occasionally got called a tomboy. I used to say my life would be much easier if I was a boy.

I'm now an adult and am a woman and 100% happy as a woman.

Change the shops you shop in so there is more gender neutral choice. There's only a few shops that shove pink/glitter and tractors/pirates down your throat. Not liking either of this things does not make you transgender is makes you an individual! She's 4, don't label her. Just cut her hair off into a bob and let her wear/play with what she wants. Right now, this is all your issue, in your head, that you are making worse with the are you a girl/boy questions. She's 4, just leave her be to find her own way.

If this was my dd who is three and very selective with her clothes, I'd just go with the flow.

I would cut her hair though. I'd show her pictures of men/boys with there long hair tied back for work/sports ect and explain that sometimes it just needs to be back for safety reasons not that you want her to look like a little girl.

The reason I would go drastic and cut her hair back is because a new hair style to an adult can be a bit of a shock and if she doesn't like it it will be even worse. There was a thread on here the other week about a lady that had a bad short hair cut and was devistated.

Understand your worry as I like mornings for dd to be stress free and happy as it make my life a million times easier if she is happy so I'd just explore make long hair and show her that actually every one wears it back if it's long

My neighbours daughter is like this, neighbour happily lets her wear whatever she wants and takes her to football training etc but she wont let her have a boys hairstyle. She doesn't have to have it tied into a girly style or wear hairclips etc. She just has a plain shoulder length style with a fringe. She's about 10 now and still the same. Friends daughter was the same and then when she went to High school changed completely and is now very girly and is a make-up artist.

As it happens, boys have long hair too - I'd just show her that and see how you go. It's okay to make a stand on something without infringing her preference for boys stuff in general.

When I was young i played with"boys toys" and wanted to wear trousers etc at the time I would have said I wanted to be a boy (apart from the hair - i had a bob and wanted long hair). As an adult I havent worn a skirt or dress for 20 years, I am a woman (with long hair ) and have 2 DD I tell them they can wear and play with what they like and there is no such thing as g/b toys and colours.
As a child who had a hair style I hated Iwould get her hair cut shorter, it will grow back.

If they really are just clothes and hair and not an expression of gender identity, why should I let her have what she wants?

It's entirely because it is just clothes that she should have what she wants. Wanting her hair cut short is probably not an expression that she wants to be a boy, but that she finds long hair a pain in the arse as its got to be fiddled around with each day. She probably sees boys just getting on with stuff and not having to worry about pony tails dipping into paint or catching on dress up clothes.

Having short hair is not having boys hair, just as having pirate pants is having boys pants. The pirate pants may be boys style trunks/pants, but I bet if they did them in girl's style pants then she'd be more than happy to have them instead.
My youngest dresses like a tomboy. She hates skirts and dresses and will only wear leggings, jeans, shorts or dungarees. When she was younger and into character clothing she used to wear 'boys' tops with Makka Pakka on them cos clothing companies didn't put him into 'girls' tops. Still now she doesn't really view stuff as girls/boys clothes and most of it could pass as gender neutral no matter which side of the shop it's bought.
I have never, ever said to her about being a boy because she's a girl that just doesn't want a pink frilly skirt and glittery top.

Please OP try and refrain from mentioning whether she's a boy or girl, whether she's playing with boys or girls toys, wearing boys or girls clothes and just let her be.

Same with me...I was and still am a 'tomboy'..I second the make your life easy route, a bob or pixie cut..it will grow out if she changes her mind...
FWIW I still don't like girly clothes/activities, I cant multitask, hate shopping, play a traditionally male sport , ...it is a source of amusement to my family..but I have been with DH 30 years and have 3 DC
Your DD may be transgender but not at 4..let her be a child..

Society wants to put your daughter into a pink sequinned box.
Your elder daughter likes that box (that's completely fine by the way)
But that means that the clothes that are around at home are also pink sequinned box approved.
So your DD2 is rebelling against this. She wants her own identity.

So, much as it's a pita to have to buy new clothes as opposed to perfectly fine hand me downs, I think you have to help her and buy her plainer clothes.

It's ridiculous this is even a 'thing', if all clothes were more gender neutral then there would be compromise things in DD1's wardrobe, but never mind.

And bob her hair. She doesn't need to have it scalped, just bob it. It's easy to manage, won't get in her way etc. I think your hesitation around this says that you see hair as a part of femininity - it really doesn't have to be. Cutting her hair doesn't send a signal about her gender.

looks at photos of my tragic primary school elfin cut that the local hairdresser really wasn't quite able to pull off. Is still a woman though

What on earth is the problem with cutting her hair? There are lots of nice short hairstyles and it will grow back quickly if she changes her mind.

The title is misleading isn't it. This should be more appropriately titled AIBU for not cutting my 4 year old's hair short even though she really wants it short.

I had dd1's hair cut off at the same age for the same reason. She kicked off about it being brushed/ put up etc. I didn't let her grow it again until she was old enough to look after it herself. I don't get the 'little girls have to have long hair' mindset. I identify as female and mine is short.

Just chill out and let her wear what she wants is my advice. I am strict about lots of things but clothes aren't one of them. Why would anyone want to dictate on something so unimportant regardless of age? I think it's unfair to make dc wear handmedowns they don't like. A friend of mine has a daughter who is much bigger than dd1, so we were being given princess type tops at 5 and dd was like . So we donated them to the charity shop, everyone's happy.

And time will tell if it's a phase - I think it's interesting she's gone anti princess perhaps she is seeing that as the girl identity and it's that she is rejecting?

Had exactly the same haircut issue with my 4yo. She wanted 'hair like daddy' (a grade 3). We compromised on a bob, which she now loves.