re: 4 year old DD and gender identity

[herethereandeverywhere]

Sorry, have posted here for traffic, not sure where else it should be.

[trying to avoid drip feed, sorry if long]

DD2 is 4 next month. She wants to be a boy. If I ask 'Are you are girl or a boy?" she answers "I'm a girl but I want to be a boy". She selected lots of 'boy' toys for Xmas like fancy dress outfits of male characters. All of this I'm comfortable with. I was very 'ant-pink' with DD1 but as soon as she hit about 2.5 and started mixing with other kids it was Disney princesses and pink sparkles all the way. So DD2 was raised in a fairly universal environment of choose what you want.

Summer last year (just after I'd bought several dresses in the sale in time for holidays) she declared she would no longer wear dresses. This has moved on to any item that looks remotely female. I have replaced her princess knickers with pirate underpants, ditto socks. There is no way she'll wear any of DD's hand me down tops with 'girly' motifs on them. when I take her for new shoes she selects the 'boy' style. I have been fine with this and was pleased she was finding her own identity. She'd been shy-er and quieter than DD1 and I saw this as her coming out of her shell, being her own person.

The issue at the moment is her hair. It's currently past shoulder length and for the last week she has been going nuts when I try to tie it back, screaming 'no ponytail'. She says she wants 'boys hair'. Today she literally screamed the place down for 10 minutes and was sobbing, utterly heartbroken. I'd been hoping she just forgot about the hair thing but it's getting worse.

I really don't want to cut her hair off - it would take so long to grow back. Until now her choices have all been instantly removable (clothes/toys) if she moved on from this, but a short hair cut is something else.

So, I suppose it's AIBU about the hair - but more importantly: is this normal? How far do I let it go? has anyone else experienced similar and what did you do/say? I'm not afraid of having a transgender child but it seems wrong to be expressing what she's doing/saying in those terms when she's not yet 4.

[FairiesAreReal]

I wore boys trousers, played with cars and cut all my hair off when I was 4 (don't know how I got hold of the scissors?!!) If my mum had asked me "are you a girl or a boy?" I would have answered exactly the same as your DD "I'm a girl but want to be a boy". It doesn't mean she is a boy in a girl's body just that she prefers 'boy's' stuff to all the pink, fluffy princess stuff.
She is 4 - ignore it.
If she's still saying it when she's 14 - then you may have to deal with it.

[Enkopkaffetak]

OP my dd3 is 12 and hates having her hair tied back. it is the sensation of the hair stuff she doesnt like. So we cut it short into a bob when she was younger. NOw at 12 she has very long hair it ONLY gets tied up for PE she HATES it tied away.

She is however a girl not a pink frilly girl but one who loves rabbits and animals However also enjoys gaming and minecraft.

Give your dd time to find her identity and don't make it a thing about how her hair is just find a middle way.

[Nataleejah]

I used to want to be a boy. Had very long hair, but it was braided and i hid it under a hat.

I think society puts too much pressure into segragating children's interests into boys' things and girls' things. You actually can like pirates, fire engines and play with toy guns and still be a girl.

[Lweji]

If they really are just clothes and hair and not an expression of gender identity, why should I let her have what she wants?

Because it's about her identity, expressing her wished, being in control of who she is and how she looks.
Nothing to do with gender.

[capercaillie]

Just go with it and don't make a big deal. DD (6) has clothes with dinosaurs, space and often hand-me-downs from girls and boys. We choose what she would like. We don't distinguish between what boys and girls might like. It's all for children. Refuses dresses - just feels comfier in leggings or trousers. She also has a short bob - her choice and mine. It's mainly because she hates having her hair brushed and won't wear it up. She's unusual in that all the other girls in her class have long hair- doesn't seem to bother her. So short is the only answer. I think some of it is a sensory thing - she just likes being comfy.

[Tabsicle]

She sounds like me at that age. I even insisted on being called a different name - a boy's name. I identify 100% as a woman now, but not a girlie one - I don't wear much make up, tend to wear trousers - although I do have a soft spot for Disney.

I think if she wants her hair cut, it'll grow back soon enough, and it seems like an unnecessary fight to pick.

[HappyChristmasPratcheters]

My 4yo DD wants to be a dinosaur, and actually claims she is a dinosaur - and has done consistently since she was about 18 months old :)

She also has short hair and wont wear skirts/dresses etc and has mainly boy clothes.

It's really a non issue.

The only niggle I have is that as a result most of the hand-me-downs I have for the 2yo DD are boys clothes (because that's all DD1 will wear), but DD2 will only wear dresses. So wont wear the hand-me-downs mostly.
Sigh.

[Jesabel]

If it was my child, I'd tell her she's a girl and she can't be a boy, it just doesn't work like that.

However, girls can have their hair how they want, dress how they want and play with whatever they want.

Personally I wouldn't try to control how a child has their hair. If she wants it all cut off, what on earth is the problem? My 5yo boy wants to grow his hair long, it doesn't affect me so he can do as he likes.

[Micah]

Let her cut her hair. Its only hair.

I'm a big believer in letting children have autonomy over their bodies. Let them dress in clothes they choose (from their own wardrobe- i only rarely let them shop at that age), buy mainly practical clothes with one or two dresses/skirts.

Hair is neither here or there. Short is actually much easier and neater, and different. My dd had lots and lots of positive comments in her style as a 3 yo with a pixie crop, and was scouted as a child model several times as her "look" stood out from the generic girl toddlers with long hair and skirts.

I think many children are experiencing gender pressure from an early age. If they prefer cars to dolls, they feel they have reject all girl stuff in favour of boys.

[Katenka]

At 5 I kept asking mum when my 'widget' would grow.

I had all boy cousins and was convinced I would eventually turn into a boy. I wore boys clothes, would freak out in a dress. I never had a doll. I slept with a toy rifle. I really thought and wanted to be a boy.

I am not living as a man. I grew out of it a few years later.

It's really difficult to tell. Personally I would just carry on as usual. Dress as she feel comfortable be that in jeans or dresses but not label her as anything at this point.

[nokidshere]

I think hair is one of the easiest things to deal with because it always replenishes itself

Just cut the hair, let her choose what to wear from the clothes available and hopefully everything will be much happier for you all.

[HairyLittleCarrot]

What is the difference between boys and girls?
Seriously, apart from body differences, what, exactly, is the difference?

NOTHING.

Your child's body is a perfect, healthy girl's body and will always be a female body.

So what on earth does she mean - wanting to be a boy? Your four year old is telling you that there is something much better about what boys get to DO and BE and CHOOSE, and she believes she has to BE a boy to have those choices.

Whatever ideas are influencing her to believe that the life a boy leads is better than a the life a girl leads, it is your job to find out what she thinks the difference is, and completely obliterate any idea that she can't have EVERYTHING a boy has, do everything a boy does, but AS A GIRL.

The difficult truth is that you are the biggest influence in her life and you have, however unwittingly, played your part in leading her to believe that a girl has to do XXX whereas a boy gets to do YYY. And she wants YYY.

The example over her hair is very revealing. You are telling her that she HAS to have a different (unlikeable, to her) hairstyle because she is a girl. That already tells me that you are limiting her based on her sex.

For God's sake, at her age, the only limitation she should have compared to a boy is the inability to pee standing up. Everything else a boy can do should be available to her, and you owe it to her to make sure that she understands she gets what she wants because GIRLS DESERVE THE SAME AS BOYS.

[WorraLiberty]

She sounds a lot like me and my best friend when we were little.

We never played with dolls, preferred our brother's Action Man toys and spent most of our time knocking about in mud/riding bikes.

It had nothing to do with 'gender identity', we were just children.

I wasn't allowed to dictate to my Mum when it came to tying my hair back, because I would have come home crawling with head lice if she didn't.

I got it cut short and so did my best friend. Again, this was just a normal childhood preference.

I think you're over thinking it OP. Just go with the flow.

[IndridCold]

A friend of mine has a DN the same age who is exactly the same. It may be because they live overseas in a very macho society where girls and women are expected to be well groomed and pretty, and she is having none of it!

Her family are quite happy to let her wear shorts, play football and have cut her hair short which looks really sweet. She doesn't look like a boy, she looks like a little tomboy.

I really hate this 'thing' that little girls have to have long hair anyway.

[Runningbutnotscared]

I'm another poster who really doesn't see the problem - she's four and can have short hair and wear boys clothes. If she was fourteen or forty she could have short hair and boys clothes.
I was the same, pretty much thought I was a boy until puberty hit, my mum saw the advantage and dressed me in my male cousins handy-me-downs.

I think the only way you could cause her gender issues is by preventing her from looking the way she feels - keeping her hair long and forcing her into dresses.
(I dated a transgendered person for many years, one of the saddest stories from her childhood was when she was beaten for wearing a dress)

[Braeburns]

I'd take for a haircut. I hated having my hair brushed as a kid and my mum eventually cut it very short around age 6 which was NOT a good look. Like a pp suggested show her some pictures of various short haircuts so it is what she wants.

[ghostyslovesheep]

I'm a bit baffled to be honest - I think a bigger issue than necessary is being made of this - why can't she have short hair if she wants it? Lots of WOMEN and GIRLS have short hair - just let her develop her own identity

My Middle DD started playing football because she wanted to be a boy - at one stage she would ONLY buy clothes for the boys department in shops - she lived in shorts, T shirts and snap backs - she would refuse to play with anything like dolls - she started high school this year and suddenly it's all make up, hair and dresses!

She is still happiest in a footy kit or jeans and trainers but they are from the girls side of the shop

at no stage did myself or her dad make an issue of it - it was just what she wanted to do/wear - it's no big deal

If she wants to be a boy - let her - she's not asking you, with all due respect, to take her for surgery - just asking you to let her wear 'boys' clothes

[PandasRock]

It is entirely possible that your dd2 is just trying to assert herself as different from your dd1. A completely normal sibling reaction.

My dd1 couldn't care less about clothes, pink or not - she has severe ASD and the whole gender thing just does not occur to her (thankfully!). And so (for eg) she has whatever clothes, in a whole range of colours, it please me to buy.

Dd2, however, will not wear some of the hand me downs. She does care about clothes (also ASD, but much higher functioning) and will only wear the ones that she likes.

Dd2, btw, used to have short hair - a crop. Because she refused to have it brushed, and hated having it washed, and tying it back was a struggle when she was about 2. So the easiest option was a crop.

She now has long hair (by her choice) and most of the time or of school has it loose, as she still dislikes having it tied back.

I agree with everyone asking why you have been asking if your dd2 is a girl or a boy. An odd question.

My ds (only 3) was in tears the other day as we went to his sisters school and he realised that when he goes there he won't be able to go into the 'pink' changing room for sports (grr at the school having different colours for the changing rooms, but to be fair, school colours are navy and raspberry). His favourite colour is pink, currently.

I explained to him he could still wear pink as part of his sports kit, but he is a boy and needed to go in the boys changing room.

Dd2 (and this made me - clearly some of my words have sunk in over the years) said 'ds, don't worry. Some people think colours are for girls and boys, but that's silly. You can still like pink. You do have to go into the boys changing room, but you don't have to change your favourite colour'

The only wanting one thing to wear (eg pirates) is completely normal. When ds2 was 3, she would only wear red. Everything had to be red - toothbrush, clothes, plates, cutlery etc. That was a nightmare as wverywhere we went, she got given pink as she is a delicate girly looking girl (even with her short crop!). She would also only wear trousers until she got to about 3, then it was only dresses for years. Now she's back to wearing a mix of leggings and dresses/skirts, but won't wear trousers at all. It's all just personality and her trying to figure out what she's comfortable wearing.

Ds wears trousers or leggings, but jumps at the chance to dress up in his sisters old dresses and be a princess. If he makes a crown, he is 'princess ds' not prince or King. I don't think he is transgender, he just thinks that it's princesses who like glitter and sparkle, so he pretends to be a princess. He knows he is neither a girl nor a princess. But he wants a pink sparkly crown so he pretends to be one. A bit like when he dresses up as the gruffalo, and needs purple prickles, or dresses up as a lion and needs a mane and tail. He is adamant he wants long hair, btw, because he cannot bear having his hair cut. His solution (and one that works for now since he is t in school) is to have longer hair. Fine. School will also be ok, as long as it is tied back (the head thinks she is being clever in threatening hair ties to boys to get them to have neater hair, that won't work with ds!). I expect sometime during reception he will end up conforming to what the other boys do, but we'll see. If he wants to keep longer hair, then so be it. He will have to stick to uniform rules (off the face/tied back for sport), but that's hardly a big issue. It won't make him a girl, although I expect he will get comments from other children, and even other adults (which is why I expect he will end up conforming, for an easier life. But his fear of haircuts is very strong, so it could take a while).

[BabyGanoush]

to answer OP

Yes it is normal.

My DS was a "girl" and went by a girls name for a whole year when he was 3/4.

The playgroup leader was great, she said that it is normal and to let him be and decide if/when he wanted to go back to his own name/persona.

He was not into pink/dolls/girls clothes, for him being a the girl he chose to be was about being kind to animals and being adventurous (nothing a boy couldn't be). Essentially he wanted to be gender neutral but with a girl's name.

It was very important to him. We let him be who he wanted to be. Some time when he was 4, he went back to his old name/persona.

He is still very feminist/against sexism though, and pulled up the PE teacher when he said something about "fighting like a girl" ("excuse me Sir, but that is sexist to girls. And I am insulted by that comment as well" (where does he get it from? Maybe he secretly goes on MN!) which I think is actually normal for kids. many kids are not into the whole gender thing, they would rather treat boys and girls the same, and I am glad DS is still friends with girls as well as boys.

When it comes to gender, we can learn a lot from kids. Kids are on the whole a lot more tolerant of anyone being "different" than adults, and hate adults making a fuss about the boy-girl difference.

[turtlepig]

OP you could be me! I had a very similar thread not long ago about my then 4 year old DD. Like you it wasn’t the liking “boy stuff” that was the issue for me it was the complete disdain for anything that she perceived as girly that bothers me. Ultimately my dd1 KNOWS she is a girl – so what does the fact that she hates girl stuff say about how she views herself? I have never labelled things boys toys/clothes and like your dd she has been given the choice of whatever she wants to play with but in today’s society most children are aware of what is marketed as girl and what as boy and no amount of “toys/clothes are for everyone” from me has much of an impact on this. I think I would feel better about the whole thing if I felt DD was just asserting her independence and choosing whatever she liked I would be much more comfortable with it but it seems she looks at choices she has and actively chooses the “boy” choice based purely on the fact that it is “for a boy” regardless of whether it be the thing she likes the best.

I think it worries me because it makes her different, noticeably so than her peers and that makes her vulnerable.. Whether it be to playground bullies or little old ladies querying her spiderman costume. My dd started reception in September, she really only wants to play with the boys, most will play with her but some wont (just on the basis she is a girl and that makes her sad). She also gets upset that she has no “best friend” as mostly she just tags on the edges of the boys groups. I guess time (and puberty!) will determine whether or not it is a phase.
I think if I were you I would leave the hair for now – I know its horrendous having daily battles and seeing them distressed is awful but at 4/5 they are really very little to be making their own hairstyle choices. Maybe just let her wear it loose for a while or we had some luck with pinning the front section back with Kirby grips (secret clips that no one can see!). My dd hasn’t asked for her hair short yet however point blank refuses to wear it tied back – EXCEPT for school but only cos she is a scaredy cat and TERRIFIED of nits!

Some stuff that has helped her have a more balanced view – letting her play and experiment with make up and nail varnish (these are FUN for a little kid boy or girl) and it is good to see her having fun with something she knows is supposedly girly but she actually enjoys! She also goes to ladybirds (kind of like brownies but younger) she loves it and because it’s all girls she actually has to interact with them and hopefully learns that girls can be fun too.

[RoganJosh]

I'm sure tying hair back doesn't help with nits as they live up at the scalp.

[HeteronormativeHaybales]

Why on earth not let her have her hair cut? Right now the poor girl is being forced to stick with somthing she really doesn't like and feels uncomfortable with, in the name of 'being a girl'. That will be doing damage and not helping at all with her 'gender identity' (I agree with a PP that this appears atm to be not so much about identity per se as about her aspirations to things societally labelled as 'for boys' - and your job would be to de-limit her ideas of being a girl - including letting her be a girl with short hair).

She has it cut, decides she doesn't like it, it grows back. Simple.

[turtlepig]

My previous thread - www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2441511-About-my-tomboy-dd1

[Lifeisontheup2]

I'm in my fifties and prefer to wear jeans and a hoodie, I have short hair and rarely wear make up, hate shopping and most of the stereotypically female pursuits.
I identify with being a woman and am straightish.