re: 4 year old DD and gender identity

[herethereandeverywhere]

Sorry, have posted here for traffic, not sure where else it should be.

[trying to avoid drip feed, sorry if long]

DD2 is 4 next month. She wants to be a boy. If I ask 'Are you are girl or a boy?" she answers "I'm a girl but I want to be a boy". She selected lots of 'boy' toys for Xmas like fancy dress outfits of male characters. All of this I'm comfortable with. I was very 'ant-pink' with DD1 but as soon as she hit about 2.5 and started mixing with other kids it was Disney princesses and pink sparkles all the way. So DD2 was raised in a fairly universal environment of choose what you want.

Summer last year (just after I'd bought several dresses in the sale in time for holidays) she declared she would no longer wear dresses. This has moved on to any item that looks remotely female. I have replaced her princess knickers with pirate underpants, ditto socks. There is no way she'll wear any of DD's hand me down tops with 'girly' motifs on them. when I take her for new shoes she selects the 'boy' style. I have been fine with this and was pleased she was finding her own identity. She'd been shy-er and quieter than DD1 and I saw this as her coming out of her shell, being her own person.

The issue at the moment is her hair. It's currently past shoulder length and for the last week she has been going nuts when I try to tie it back, screaming 'no ponytail'. She says she wants 'boys hair'. Today she literally screamed the place down for 10 minutes and was sobbing, utterly heartbroken. I'd been hoping she just forgot about the hair thing but it's getting worse.

I really don't want to cut her hair off - it would take so long to grow back. Until now her choices have all been instantly removable (clothes/toys) if she moved on from this, but a short hair cut is something else.

So, I suppose it's AIBU about the hair - but more importantly: is this normal? How far do I let it go? has anyone else experienced similar and what did you do/say? I'm not afraid of having a transgender child but it seems wrong to be expressing what she's doing/saying in those terms when she's not yet 4.

[IceBeing]

We hang with a home ed. crowd and there is a lot of purple pink sparkles and long hair on boys there. It is truly refreshing!

[IceBeing]

archeryanne I didn't get a chance to say anything, my sister jumped in with a jumbled mix of well he could have long hair but he wouldn't like all the brushing, having long hair won't make you a girl and what's wrong with girls anyway...

I think I would have said something like 'you might look great with long hair - maybe you should try it one day' and just chicken out of the gender stuff

[Wolpertinger]

Just cut her hair. When I was growing up in the 70s it was far more normal for girls to have short hair - in fact I've never ever had hair longer than a bob my whole life. At school the girls had a range of hair lengths and only one girl in my class had long hair that wasn't cut - about 50% of us had short hair and the rest only just long enough for a small pony tail.

It's only since being on mumsnet that I've realised it's de rigeur for all girls to have long hair now but it certainly wasn't always like this.

[ArcheryAnnie]

My nephew (aged 5) recently told me he would like to have long hair but then he would turn into a girl and he isn't sure about that.

What was your reply to your nephew when he said this, IceBeing?

(Just for context, my son has been the - his choice - long haired boy in a sea of crewcuts most of his life. When he was smaller he was often taken for a girl, but really didn't care as he knew he was a boy. When he got to school age his short-haired, very conventional friends didn't - and don't - see any problem with him being a boy with long hair. At 14, he now wants it cut because he wants to cosplay as a character with shorter hair at a convention this summer, but he doesn't want to have it cut until just before.)

[WhoTheFuckIsSimon]

Sorry, see it's been done. Bet it suits her.

[WhoTheFuckIsSimon]

Just cut her hair.

It's not about giving into a 4yo, it's about picking your battles. It doesn't matter if she has short hair or long hair. So let her have it how she likes.

[herethereandeverywhere]

DD1 had forgotten the drama within 5 minutes of getting home - she has a highly strung, dramatic, prone to throwing tantrums temperament whereas DD2 is much more easy going and placid - which is part of why the upset and tears and demands over the haircut had such an impact on me. In general she just isn't like that. And I accept the who preference for 'boy' things may well be her way of differentiating herself from DD1 - which is fine.

DD2 does look quite different and DD1 just took a while to adjust to the new normal.

[WilLiAmHerschel]

The sister's reaction does sound quite OTT. Both of them seem to place a lot of significance on hair. Is that a normal thing today? I remember my mum gave me some dodgy haircuts when I was younger and although I might have been a bit embarrassed of my wonky fringe, it wasn't that big a deal. My siblings didn't give a shit how I had my hair nor I theirs.

[OTheHugeManatee]

So your DD1 cried at the hairdresser and still won't look at her sister? About her sister's haircut?

I think this whole hoo-ha is mostly about the relationship between the sisters. If I had to guess I'd say DD2 is sick of being bossed about by her older sister and is claiming to be a boy so as to assert her independence, and DD1's tears are hurt at being rejected and anger at being deprived of her girly minion.

[SheldonsSpotOnTheCouch]

I'm glad your dd likes her hair. I love having my hair short. I dont like the feeling of hair on my neck, on my forehead or around my ears. It's a sensory thing - makes me feel itchy and messy.

I do think you're getting too sucked into the whole gender thing and making issues where they don't exist. I don't think gender identy ever needs to be an issue at 4 years old.

[catkind]

Reading with interest. My nearly 4 has just decided she wanted short hair. She also refers to it as "hair like a boy's", and in her case is actually very into being a girl and pink and princesses and ballet and what have you. I guess annoyance at faffing with clips and hairbrushing and ponytails trumped her interest in being Rapunzel. Fine by us, it's her head. She's got what in girls is generally referred to as a pixie cut, looks the same as ds's short back and sides to me - thoroughly adorable anyway. Main thing she's delighted with it.

[IguanaTail]

Interesting. As a child I always wanted long hair (preferably golden). My reality was a dark brown bob / bowl haircut. I don't think I fixated on it particularly though.

Glad she got her short hair. It's not easy being 4 with someone else making every single decision for you. Nice she's got something which is her own choice. Good for you OP.

[Lweji]

I agree with you ice.

[IceBeing]

I really disagree with the idea that here has somehow indoctrinated her DD into thinking only boys have short hair. It is far more likely that she picked up this idea from every boy she sees at nursery, every boy she sees on TV, every boy she sees in an advert in shops, print or TV.

In fact here could go blue in the face saying boys and girls can wear and do whatever they like but the whole world is calling her a lier and an observant child will see the facts around her.

[Lweji]

They are growing up and taking it all in. Some conversations need to occur many times. :)

[herethereandeverywhere]

Lweji both DDs have had that talk multiple times, but as Ice has said, they are returning to the stereotypes that others are influencing them with.

She is dressing and behaving as she wants to - I'm also needing to balance this with the impression given to DD1 that DD2 caused a scene about her hair until she got what she wanted.

[goodnightdarthvader1]

It's clear your DD was talking about boys stuff because it's how it's usually associated to what she wanted. A good talk and showing some examples will show her she can be herself and dress and behave like she wants to.

Agree. I think her wording is more indicative of how you've presented the gender divide to her thus far in her life, rather than her wanting a sex change. I think the fact you asked if she was a boy or a girl backs this up. "You like boy things so you must be a boy" is how she heard that.

[herethereandeverywhere]

Thanks Ice. That's why I think the preschool will be interesting. DD2 was not at all phased by DD1's hysterical performance. As DH just observed, DD2 is quietly self-assured.

[IceBeing]

here you can set an example but every other single influence your DD's encounter tells them the opposite. It isn't surprising she has reached these conclusions in spite of your best efforts.

Maybe a few people will begin interacting with her as though she is a boy. That can only be to her benefit - and if no one does then she is no worse off and may still love her hair!

[Lweji]

It's clear your DD was talking about boys stuff because it's how it's usually associated to what she wanted. A good talk and showing some examples will show her she can be herself and dress and behave like she wants to.

[herethereandeverywhere]

But the fact you are conveniently choosing to ignore is that she was asking for "boy's hair" not "short hair".

I'm also baffled as to the logic which means I would not have posted here if I was only concerned about her happiness. This was about more than giving in to a small child about hair style. I was concerned about the permanency of the decision, at 4 she may well not realise it. I was also concerned that the requests were always about things which make her look like a boy yet she isn't and won't be one. I don't want this to make her sad. The 'boy' description by her is prominent. I have worked to describe all things being for everyone and yet this persists.

And Joan I'm not interested in hearing all about you. I'm struggling to find your multiple descriptions of yourself relevant to this thread.

[Lweji]

Sticking up for Joan here:

This is possibly the most obviously bollocks thing I have seen on a thread ever.
That could be said about your post and how you completely misinterpreted and then went to post a different thing altogether to what the previous sentence said.

There is a huge difference between being connected to gender and how children interpret what they observe in society around them.
The first means that gender doesn't determine hair length. In different societies and different times men and women keep hair at very different lengths from what is convention for western society at the moment.
Then there's children observing that boys are kept with their hair short and girls with long hair and thinking it's a characteristic like a penis and a vagina.

[IceBeing]

joan go into an actual nursery. The correlation is there for anyone to see. Sure it doesn't have to be like that but it is in fact EXACTLY like that.

Girl = pink/purple. long hair

Boy = NOT pink, short hair.

So when a 3 yo says I won't wear pink and I want short hair this is equivalent IN THEIR EYES to saying I want to change gender.

Nobody is saying it is the same...but it is perfectly reasonable to assume they THINK it is. Which is all the OP has said.