re: 4 year old DD and gender identity

[herethereandeverywhere]

Sorry, have posted here for traffic, not sure where else it should be.

[trying to avoid drip feed, sorry if long]

DD2 is 4 next month. She wants to be a boy. If I ask 'Are you are girl or a boy?" she answers "I'm a girl but I want to be a boy". She selected lots of 'boy' toys for Xmas like fancy dress outfits of male characters. All of this I'm comfortable with. I was very 'ant-pink' with DD1 but as soon as she hit about 2.5 and started mixing with other kids it was Disney princesses and pink sparkles all the way. So DD2 was raised in a fairly universal environment of choose what you want.

Summer last year (just after I'd bought several dresses in the sale in time for holidays) she declared she would no longer wear dresses. This has moved on to any item that looks remotely female. I have replaced her princess knickers with pirate underpants, ditto socks. There is no way she'll wear any of DD's hand me down tops with 'girly' motifs on them. when I take her for new shoes she selects the 'boy' style. I have been fine with this and was pleased she was finding her own identity. She'd been shy-er and quieter than DD1 and I saw this as her coming out of her shell, being her own person.

The issue at the moment is her hair. It's currently past shoulder length and for the last week she has been going nuts when I try to tie it back, screaming 'no ponytail'. She says she wants 'boys hair'. Today she literally screamed the place down for 10 minutes and was sobbing, utterly heartbroken. I'd been hoping she just forgot about the hair thing but it's getting worse.

I really don't want to cut her hair off - it would take so long to grow back. Until now her choices have all been instantly removable (clothes/toys) if she moved on from this, but a short hair cut is something else.

So, I suppose it's AIBU about the hair - but more importantly: is this normal? How far do I let it go? has anyone else experienced similar and what did you do/say? I'm not afraid of having a transgender child but it seems wrong to be expressing what she's doing/saying in those terms when she's not yet 4.

Try not to ask whether she's a boy or girl (you all know how she was born). It shouldn't even be necessary at this age - maybe questions like: do you want to try this food or that? Shall we go to the park or the cinema (whatever)? Shall we play hide and seek, or do some craft/painting?
She's just learning to be herself and she's showing you at the moment that she is more drawn to things that the boys are wearing and doing. Fair call. We all go through that to some degree and then we change our minds again. Let her be, and try not to put your adult thoughts about what all this means and leave the unnecessary questions for now.
She is just her 4 year old self and she'll be learning for the next 14 or so years exactly what she likes and doesn't like. No need to worry if and when she wants long hair again and chooses to wear pink. It may or may not happen. That's the joy in raising kids.

kawliga You are messing with something that has HUGE implications for your daughter. FFS I asked her a question - twice - related to something she was actually talking about at the time (i.e.: the selection of 'boy' clothing/ role playing a boy - and that is her own description, not mine). I'm not telling her who or what she is, I'm asking her to express it her own way. You are WAY overreacting!

izmoll thank you so much for your kind and considered post. I have no idea if DD2's path will follow that of your daughter but I really appreciate that you've shared your experience and you are understanding of what I'm experiencing with my child.

She does get a bit upset when they boys in preschool won't play with her and she doesn't really have any close friends to speak of yet. The school she'll likely go to in September does not have a uniform so she won't be forced into stereotypical 'girl' clothing that she's not happy about.

We had another screaming crying session this morning about the long hair and the ponytail. We looked at lots of photos (on google) of boys with long hair and short hair and girls with short hair so she could point out what she might like. She would not select any of the short girl hairstyles (pixie crops or bobs) because, in her words, 'they are not boys'. She's chosen a layered crop (pictured on a boy) and we have a hairdressers appointment at 5.20 today.

I've just remembered she's been asked to be a bridesmaid in August. Oh hell, I hope the dress hasn't been bought yet!

I wanted to be a boy from ages 4 to 11/12. Never thought I actually was one, just wanted to wear "boys" clothing and play with the thought of things boys played with. Had a "boys" haircut. Used a shortened version of my name that is unisex.

It was fine. I was fine. Your dd will be fine too. I very much identify as a woman now, although I still have little interest in clothes/fashion/make up now and would still rather be an explorer than a hairdresser, or climb a tree rather than play princesses.

I would have her hair cut. It doesn't have to be in a bob either, there's no earthly reason why a girl can't have proper short hair with layers. When I was a little girl I think it was roughly half and half between girls with short hair and girls with longer hair (though hardly any had it practically down to their waist like some do now). Short hair will grow back, and if she changes her mind and it doesn't grow as fast as she'd like, she's not too young to begin to see that choices have consequences. But my gut feeling is that she won't change her mind for a few years anyway.

Sounds just like my dd at 4 - she 's just turned 7 so the drama has lessened but she still hates dresses or clothes/toys obviously aimed at girls. She has an older brother though so we get to hand down some of his clothes which is an unexpected bonus! Her hair has been in s short fringed bob since she was 3 - always refused any hair bobbles or slides. Over the years we've both got more accustomed to clothes shopping but it's really hard to find appropriate clothes that we're both happy with - today she is wearing black leggings with a blue Lego movie theme tshirt and converse!

My dd has to wear a dress for school which didn't go down well to start with and the one wedding we went to she did wear a lovely green dress but only after I resorted to bribery!

I suppose I'm saying that if you work with her rather than against her you can avoid the horrible tears and tantrums. Once I realised this and pretty much let her choose whatever she wanted to wear without comment then life got much easier.

I really sympathise with you op but it will get better..

Let the poor child have her hair short. She's got the whole rest of her life to faff around with hairstyles. Let her enjoy childhood without having to have it styled when she doesn't like the fuss.

We went for the chop. I think the hairdresser was slightly traumatised (and we drew gasps and a bit of an audience...) but we got what DD2 wanted and she's really happy with it. On the way home she said "look at my hair mummy. No bows, no clips, no ponytail. No nothing." She keeps looking at her reflection in the window and saying "look at my hair, I love, love, love it!" DD1 on the other hand cried in the hairdressers and most of the way home (about her sisters new look "I do not like it!") She was initially refusing to look at her sister but that's worn off.

We've had chats about being kind about other people's choices, even if it is not what you would choose. And the important things about people are on the inside not the outside etc.

I'm interested to see what the reaction of her peers at preschool will be (I expect initial surprise then business as usual such is the way of kids).

She's even agreed to wear a bridesmaids dress so long as she can keep her hair. Bless.

What a nice update, OP! Good for you.

I often grow my hair fairly long (these days it's loooooooooong because I intend to cut it to donate to a cancer charity to make wigs, but I digress).
Then I get fed up with it and the hairdressers get really worried and sad that I cut it to a short bob. I'm always very happy with it and amused at their reaction.

Glad your DD is loving hers. And she may want longer again and grow it.

How short is it?

I'm glad you went for the short haircut OP. I had short hair from age 4-12 and refused to wear dresses. I felt that boys had been given all the interesting and cool toys, and I was pretty disdainful about anything 'girly'

Although I got very annoyed if anyone thought I was a boy. I was a girl with short hair wearing trews.

Its a bit like Romeo Beckham in the Burberry adverts - but she has finer and darker hair.

JoanFerguson I'm glad I don't know you because I find you fucking rude. I want my DD to be happy. That is all.

And Joan The flower girl thing came from HER. Because she WONT WEAR DRESSES. YOU'D KNOW THAT IF YOU RTFT.

What comes from me is me wanting to do the best by her. Now find another thread to pour scorn all over. Ta.

herethere, to be fair if all you wanted was your daughter to be happy, you wouldn't have started this thread.
It does seem that you have very fixed ideas about gender that you are not acknowledging.

I have no idea what Joan has just posted. And for some reason I hope the op doesn't either.

I'm glad she loves it and glad you let her choose her hair style!

Also she is right - she should want to be a boy. They get to have more fun at nursery (because boys will be boys - and don't have to behave as well as girls) and they get encouraged to be brave and smart and powerful rather than just pretty and friendly.

I'd lay the OP off on this.
She has certainly taken on board the advice on the thread and has a happy girl.
As for the dress I have had to make ds wear more formal wear he would normally hate to use. It comes with societal conventions. No need for rolling eyes.

there is literally NO connection between the length of your hair and what sex you are.

This is possibly the most obviously bollocks thing I have seen on a thread ever.

Walk into a nursery. 95% of the boys will have short back and sides. 99% of the girls won't have short back and sides. Many nursery age kids think that gender actually is determined by hair length.

My nephew (aged 5) recently told me he would like to have long hair but then he would turn into a girl and he isn't sure about that.

Honestly hair length is incredibly connected to sex at nursery age.

Just a thought, if she is objecting to hand me down clothes but you really want to get some more wear out of them, how about letting her choose done Dylon and then dye a batch of T-shirts? Being able to choose the colour and getting involved in the process of transforming them might appeal to her.

To whoever said that 3/4 yearn olds should have a fringe and shoulder length bob! This is my 4 year old dd. one size doesn't fit all!
It grows outwards and her friends mainly have hair right down their backs.
Dd is what you would call a bit of a tomboy and has gone through a "being a boy phase" and even had a name and a deep voice :)
She is still very much a little girl. She's not defined by her hair or anything else ( always described as the girl with the curly hair )
She often wears football kits but is also happy in a frozen dress.

joan go into an actual nursery. The correlation is there for anyone to see. Sure it doesn't have to be like that but it is in fact EXACTLY like that.

Girl = pink/purple. long hair

Boy = NOT pink, short hair.

So when a 3 yo says I won't wear pink and I want short hair this is equivalent IN THEIR EYES to saying I want to change gender.

Nobody is saying it is the same...but it is perfectly reasonable to assume they THINK it is. Which is all the OP has said.