re: 4 year old DD and gender identity

[herethereandeverywhere]

Sorry, have posted here for traffic, not sure where else it should be.

[trying to avoid drip feed, sorry if long]

DD2 is 4 next month. She wants to be a boy. If I ask 'Are you are girl or a boy?" she answers "I'm a girl but I want to be a boy". She selected lots of 'boy' toys for Xmas like fancy dress outfits of male characters. All of this I'm comfortable with. I was very 'ant-pink' with DD1 but as soon as she hit about 2.5 and started mixing with other kids it was Disney princesses and pink sparkles all the way. So DD2 was raised in a fairly universal environment of choose what you want.

Summer last year (just after I'd bought several dresses in the sale in time for holidays) she declared she would no longer wear dresses. This has moved on to any item that looks remotely female. I have replaced her princess knickers with pirate underpants, ditto socks. There is no way she'll wear any of DD's hand me down tops with 'girly' motifs on them. when I take her for new shoes she selects the 'boy' style. I have been fine with this and was pleased she was finding her own identity. She'd been shy-er and quieter than DD1 and I saw this as her coming out of her shell, being her own person.

The issue at the moment is her hair. It's currently past shoulder length and for the last week she has been going nuts when I try to tie it back, screaming 'no ponytail'. She says she wants 'boys hair'. Today she literally screamed the place down for 10 minutes and was sobbing, utterly heartbroken. I'd been hoping she just forgot about the hair thing but it's getting worse.

I really don't want to cut her hair off - it would take so long to grow back. Until now her choices have all been instantly removable (clothes/toys) if she moved on from this, but a short hair cut is something else.

So, I suppose it's AIBU about the hair - but more importantly: is this normal? How far do I let it go? has anyone else experienced similar and what did you do/say? I'm not afraid of having a transgender child but it seems wrong to be expressing what she's doing/saying in those terms when she's not yet 4.

My take on this is that it's a behavioural issue,. A bit like many eating and sleep problems - they turn into a battle of power and control - as the child tries to control and influence the adult's behaviour. Children spot our anxieties very quickly and if your daughter has noticed some anxiety or reaction from you about the hair issue or the being a girl issue she will keep repeating that behaviour. The trick is to be totally dispassionate as you would about an eating issue. 'You want your hair shorter? OK.'
'You want to wear your jeans? Here they are. '
I understand your anxiety given some of the foolish decisions a tiny minority of parents are making about young children being transgender - but as nearly every one has pointed out - the 'I'm a boy / a cat / a tiger / a monster etc stage is totally normal. The issue is the adult reactions to this.
Just go with the flow, offer restricted choices if necessary, let her have her hair cut and try to ignore the issue - play it down and let her get on with being a child. Good luck

My DTD (6) have always been very much like this. At 4 they would also say they wanted to be boys, but I suspect this was simply because all the things they enjoyed at that age were marketed or socially pigeonholed as "boys' things". Now they are happily girls who just have very pronounced and not particularly conventional likes and dislikes.

They play football and climb with the boys, draw, craft and play cuddly animals with the girls and Lego/Playmobil with all-comers; preferred fancy dress is knight and fireman; they hate princessy stuff but love a bit of glitter, refuse to wear anything pink or lilac but love skirts and dresses in other colours.

Because they are so outdoorsy we go with practical, easy-care, chin-length bob haircuts. They often have phases of wanting hair ornaments but when we buy them they keep them in for 5 mins and then get tired of them.

I love the fact that they are so much themselves and couldn't care less about gender stereotypes. DH and I not caring much either possibly has something to do with it.

I really would let her cut her hair. I don't understand why people are suggesting she will have her hair as you want it - why? Fight a battle about speaking politely, not hitting, table manners - all of that - but hair? Both my girls (3 and 6) are asked each day what they'd like me to do with their hair. DD1 knows it has to be tied back (classmate with permanent nits) but aside from that it's her choice - I would love DD1 to have shorter hair but she likes it long. DD2 hates bunches which is an enormous shame as she looks soooo cute in them but again - her choice. They have to become their own person bit by bit and the stuff which isn't important of course you should let them choose.

You can go for a pageboy style - no need for a short back and sides.

In your shoes also I would seek out genuinely unisex clothes (polarn o pyret is good - pricey but a thriving second hand market for it) to allow her to express herself without having to think "boy" or "girl".

I suspect that she may either perceive your dislike of her big sister's "girlie" choice or she's just wanting to be different.

I was a very girlie girl. Pink, dolls and fairies all the way. My dsis was very much a tomboy, she would never like such revolting stuff. She admitted in adulthood that she deliberately avoided it because I liked it so she was different. She now is very into it, as her girls are!

I don't even see what would be so terrible if she DID end up with a short back and sides.

One of my dds at that age was always mistaken for a boy, short hair, would only wear trousers or shorts (with pockets) and only had friends who were boys. She refused to pay with dolls and all her stuffed animals were boys. Now that she's a leggy 22yr old with long hair the photos from those days are a source of great amusement to everyone including her boyfriend. Don't sweat it, let her wear what she likes and cut her hair.

My mother was very much a "tomboy" growing up in the 1970's. Wanted her hair like a boy, wanted to do "boy" activities and play with "boy" toys. All her friends were boys, putting her in dresses caused distress.

Is she transgender? Why no, no she isn't.

In response to the 'is it normal' - dd had a stage (I forget how long, year plus?) of being interested ONLY in wearing pink/skirts. Trousers were ignored. Just as her whole wardrobe started to sink in sequins, she decided to flip things, and started wearing almost exclusively leggings and trousers. She was in nursery/Y1 at this stage, so wore her brothers old shorts and tights under for school. She looked fab, and a couple of her mates also started doing the same. So yes, ime, it's perfectly 'normal'.

And yes, I'd let her cut her hair - dd had short hair for years because it didn't grown - I loved it and it really suited her. It's just hair!

(NB She now has long hair, and wears mostly trews/leggings with occasional skirts/dresses for special occasions/if they are comfy. Just like her mother, in fact)

Like others, I am bemused by the move to make liking anything 'not screaming girl' into some kind of gender thing. Let Children be Children...

Stop panicking, have her hair cut, let her choose her own clothes. Let her be herself. Stop asking 'Are you a girl or a boy?'

Don't make her have a pageboy haircut, whatever you do. No-one wants to be the child with the pageboy haircut.

Rather than thinking of it as having a boys hair cut, think of it as a cute pixie cut. A friends dd had one done recently and she looks amazing, and no arguing over hair brushing either

Yes - quite right - pixie cut. Better than pageboy. Although there's a lot of 70s retro around at the moment!

I asked my DD if she was a boy or girl.

She said girl because she has a vagina. I asked her if DS was a boy or girl. Boy because he has a willy.

Boy=willy
Girl=vagina

Pink, long hair, army clothes, rough play and the rest of that gender bollocks is all socialisation. You like what you like. It's doesn't change your sex.

Lots of girls have been like this throughout history. You could say it's a totally rational response to seeing what boys get to do and what girls get to do. Me and my sister had boy alter-egos when we were small, complete with boy names, as it let us do all the things we wanted to.

It also sounds like she's getting very strong signals (from nursery?) about "what boys do" and "what girls do" if she's, eg, associating short hair with being a boy and pony tails with being a girl. My son at that age, on starting nursery, confidently told me that girls wear skirts and boys wear trousers, even though he had never ever seen me in a skirt, ever, and his own great-grandfather wore a long robe. (And his best friend's dad got married in a kilt.) Societal pressure is really strong in enforcing utterly ridiculous assumed gender norms, even if you have done your best not to do this at home.

She's four. Her job for the next few decades is to try on all sorts of ways to live in the world, and see if they fit. I can't see a problem in allowing her to dress how she likes and have her hair how she likes, as long as you aren't also telling her it's only possible to look like this, dress like this, play with these toys if you are a boy. So I would seriously stop with the "are you a girl or a boy" questions.

PS you can point to all the boys that have long hair. My teenage son has his way past his shoulders. It's 2016! People can have whatever hair they like.

PPS I'd rather have pirate underpants than princess ones, too. I'm a middle-aged mum.

So much common sense spoken on this thread. My four year old is also very fussy about his clothes at the moment. It's just her age.

Just cut her hair. If she doesn't like it then she will have learned that not all actions are consequence-free. It will grow back.

Separate the gender from the biology. Gender, meh. She can dress how she likes, wear her hair how she likes, have a gender neutral version of her name, play with what she likes, anyone with a problem with this has an issue with girls not fulfilling their personal stereotypes. This isn't a new thing, George from the Famous Five is a well known example.

I was perfectly happy in frilly dresses and flower prints as a toddler (actually not interested in clothes at all, so wore whatever was put on me). My next in line sister as a toddler had very powerful preferences, screamed the place down if anyone tried to get her to wear those hand me down dresses, flowers, pastels. She wanted strong colours, geometric designs, no skirts ever, played with lego and cars and her best friends were always boys. Looking at how she dresses and decorates her house now that's just who she is, she's a strong personality with a strong sense of self and it's still sharp, bright, gender neutral. She still would not be caught dead in a summer frock.

very fussy about his clothes at the moment. It's just her age.
His clothes = her age (i'm sure it was a typo somewhere)

My four year old is a boy and also fussy. It's down to op's (female) child's age.

I used to want to be a boy, well I didn't, but I liked 'boy' toys and games and my friends were boys. My mom wouldn't let me cut my hair off but just went with the flow for everything else. As I grew up a little any worked out I was a girl who like boy stuff I was far more comfortable, and perfectly happy as a girl then. I am all woman now! :D
transgender bollox could have caused great distress for kids like me if it was thought of so much then. I didn't want to be a boy, I thought I did, but I wasn't well matched to traditional girl stereotypes, and even though those stereotypes weren't inforce in my home, I clearly soaked them up from the general environment... and that's what caused the confusion.

Just tell her she is a girl, and liking boys things doesn't change that, and it isn't wrong to like boy things as a girl. I wish someone had said this to me when I was younger and couldn't understand the complex ideas of what was going on! I also found it really hard to indulge in anything 'girly' even when I wanted to as I had had to fight hard to be allowed the boy stuff, and was a little scared of letting go of my hard won boy stuff enjoyment.

No idea if that made sense!

Normal to me. Several of them are like this. Dd never liked pink, refused to have hair tied back, won't wear dresses, never played with dolls. She has two friends the same. One girl in the class was similar and her mum took it to a whole new level in reception, buying her y fronts and boys clothes. Two years later she was into pink dresses and Alice bands.

Mine is 10 now and just prefers more sporty type clothes, doesn't want long hair. She'd wear jeans and hoodies, t shirts with animals on - that type of thing. But never says anything about wanting to be male. She likes rockets and dragon type lego rather than the lego friends. I do usually manage to get her into a summer dress for the last half term of school, just because it's very hot in the classroom by then. I don't think it's a gender issue per se.

I wonder if it's to do with me really. I don't wear dresses very often and am not one to be too bothered about appearance and grooming. I'm clean, wear minimal makeup, jeans and tops but I wouldn't get up an hour earlier to straighten my hair. Dd's always had a chin length bob. I can well imagine her come secondary school in a year's time to grow it long and put on the school gusset showing mini skirt to comply with the others - no girls at the local secondary school wear trousers.

I just go with what she wants, it's her life. I feel slightly saddened that I have absolutely no pictures of her in bunches though.

I think it's also worth emphasising that there aren't "boy things" (clothes, haircuts, toys) or "girl things", just "things", any chance you get. So if she says "boys have short hair" just gently mention all the men you know and that she knows (personally, or on the telly, or whatever) who have long hair, and if she says toy cars are for boys, then you can just point to all the women on the street driving cars, buses, and whatnot. And so on.

Yep I tried to get the message across that lots of boys have short hair, but if you have short hair it doesn't mean you're a boy and vice versa. But because of that occasionally someone might make a mistake and think you're a boy, which might be frustrating, but it is just a mistake. And pointed out her teachers who have short hair too which would be s good come back in nursary (if they mind being called a boy, which mine did not because she cared about being a boy or a girl, but because they were insisting something was true about her that she knew wasn't)

i find this thread rather reassuring in that the kool aid hasn't spread so far as to have people diagnosing a child as being transgender. the sad reality is some parents would take this normal range behaviour and run with the trans ideology.

so many stories of people on here who have been through similar and are living perfectly happy lives - imagine if instead they'd been moulded and encouraged down the trans path?

even sadder - in many parts of the US they will be given hormones to prevent puberty ..