re: 4 year old DD and gender identity

[herethereandeverywhere]

Sorry, have posted here for traffic, not sure where else it should be.

[trying to avoid drip feed, sorry if long]

DD2 is 4 next month. She wants to be a boy. If I ask 'Are you are girl or a boy?" she answers "I'm a girl but I want to be a boy". She selected lots of 'boy' toys for Xmas like fancy dress outfits of male characters. All of this I'm comfortable with. I was very 'ant-pink' with DD1 but as soon as she hit about 2.5 and started mixing with other kids it was Disney princesses and pink sparkles all the way. So DD2 was raised in a fairly universal environment of choose what you want.

Summer last year (just after I'd bought several dresses in the sale in time for holidays) she declared she would no longer wear dresses. This has moved on to any item that looks remotely female. I have replaced her princess knickers with pirate underpants, ditto socks. There is no way she'll wear any of DD's hand me down tops with 'girly' motifs on them. when I take her for new shoes she selects the 'boy' style. I have been fine with this and was pleased she was finding her own identity. She'd been shy-er and quieter than DD1 and I saw this as her coming out of her shell, being her own person.

The issue at the moment is her hair. It's currently past shoulder length and for the last week she has been going nuts when I try to tie it back, screaming 'no ponytail'. She says she wants 'boys hair'. Today she literally screamed the place down for 10 minutes and was sobbing, utterly heartbroken. I'd been hoping she just forgot about the hair thing but it's getting worse.

I really don't want to cut her hair off - it would take so long to grow back. Until now her choices have all been instantly removable (clothes/toys) if she moved on from this, but a short hair cut is something else.

So, I suppose it's AIBU about the hair - but more importantly: is this normal? How far do I let it go? has anyone else experienced similar and what did you do/say? I'm not afraid of having a transgender child but it seems wrong to be expressing what she's doing/saying in those terms when she's not yet 4.

DD (13) had a severe reaction against "princess pink/barbie" culture after having been immersed in it around the age of 6. She rejected all her pink/flower motif clothes, and even now her clothes are mostly black/white/animal prints etc. never wears dresses or skirts. Nevertheless she keeps her hair long (too long IMO), and wears lipgloss.

gender confusion!!!

One question: why do your ask your DD "Are you a boy or a girl"? It would never have crossed my mind to ask any kid that question.

What CalleighDoodle said.

I can't help but think that these are not the replies the OP wanted. Why else bring 'gender identity' into it?

herethereandeverywhere - I was the exact same way as your daughter, only from a younger age (about 2). I would really encourage you to let her get on with it, have her hair short and wear the clothes she wants. Don't let her think you are embarrassed or ashamed of her - be proud of her for feeling able to be herself (and of her older sister for her choices too, even if they are pink and princessy and you don't like that). I would also try and get her lots of books with awesome female role models and show her that you can do all the things she thinks are for boys. I never wanted to be a girl character when I played with my brothers because the girl characters never got to do any of the stuff I wanted. Also, don't comment on her choice of clothing, especially if she does occasionally pick out something girlier. When I grew out of my "boy" phase (aged about 11), I felt really constrained in terms of what I wore because everyone would make comments about what I was wearing all the time. I wore skirts and dresses with my friends but not in front of my parents for years and years.

In the end, it is only hair (to you) but to her it may be something much more important. I cried every single day for a year because we moved and my new primary school insisted I wore a skirt. In the end, they gave in and let me wear trousers, but I can't quite wrap my head around the fact that it took a year of a 7 year old sobbing every morning before they changed their policy. It was a huge deal for me and I couldn't get over it.

OhShutUp I don't under stand what you mean. What do you think are the replies I want?

Kawliga I did explain why I asked DD2 if she was a girl or a boy - BTW I have asked DD this twice - a few months ago and about a week ago. My explanation was in my post at 9.18 this morning: " I was curious to understand whether she was pretending to be a boy, wanted to be a boy, or thought she was a boy. As many have said she's 4 so the question can't matter that much at this stage. No more than asking what her favourite icecream is or which TV character she wants to be (=Miles from Tomorrow)." It's absolutely not something I fixated on, just something I was curious about.

The cutting of her hair is more permanent than any other choices she has made so far. If next week she decides to be a lion with a mane she's going to miss that long hair.

And the crux of my reason for posting is the depth of her emotion and distress around having a ponytail and screaming her demands for "boy hair" (her description, not mine). The level of distress is just not consistent with anything else she has expressed about anything, ever. And her references to the clothes and hair she is choosing are always to 'boy' things - which is absolutely not something she got from me. I'm at pains to point out they can be for everyone.

Some posts have been really helpful in enabling me to think through my reluctance to cut her hair off and why I have 'escalated' this issue out of the usual 'small child is demanding something' set of parenting challenges.

Thanks for everyone's contributing it's been interesting. I think there was an overall majority in favour of 'just get her hair cut' but that was the thing there was least agreement on overall.

Aw bless her. Try to show her that it's not boys or girls stuff, it can be either.

You can't see the obvious OP.
You have played a large part in creating this problem.
It is within your influence to solve it.

Stop with "boys hair/girls hair, boy clothes/girl clothes"
Allow your daughter to make age appropriate, practical choices about clothes, hair, games and friends.

If you are worried that she sees 'stereotypical girls stuff' as inferior, for inferior people, then your job is to understand where that is coming from, and explain that girls are not inferior. Whilst respecting the fact that she shouldn't have to choose any of it for herself if she doesn't want to.

You are the one who is limiting her and and it is by your own admission that you would see granting her perfectly reasonable desires as an indulgence which you grant reluctantly. You'd rather she conformed to your expectations of girl presentation and you are resisting her need to break out of that little box.

Wanting a practical short hairstyle (and being refused because your mother wants you to look girly) is not the same as wanting to wear a princess dress to the park (and being refused for entirely practical reasons).
The first refusal is unreasonably prioritising gender stereotypes above practicality.
The second is prioritising practicality - as you should.

Hairy Who said I was refusing to cut her hair because I want her to look girly

I'm not sure a decision by an almost 4 year old to cut her hair off because it fits the 'theme' she is going for at the moment (what she calls 'boys hair' and 'boys clothes') is a choice based on practicality at all.

Regardless, it is practical as it stops the huge tantrums you are getting when you try to force her to have a pony tail.

Having short hair isn't a permanent thing at all, and if she wants to be a lion, you can improvise.

Asking for boy hair and boy clothes are indicative of today's narrow gender stereotypes, it doesn't mean she wants to be a boy.

At some point she will have to understand that deciding to have her hair cut is put to her, and if she then doesn't like it short, she will remember when it has grown. That's part of life and learning that actions have consequences, positive and negative.

It's just hair. It isn't important. Nothing bad will happen if she has it short for a while. If it turns out she hates it, then it's a good lesson in making decisions. If she likes it then great. I don't see why it's such a big deal and why it needs all this soul searching and angst.

Sorry if I got the wrong end of the stick, herethereandeverywhere.
Just you seem so vested in keeping it long, and you are simultaneously questioning her rejection of all things girly, so it seemed that this was your motivation.

Why do you want her to keep her long hair, and, do you imagine you would feel the same about keeping a boy's hair long too?
It seems like you feel the 'default' is long hair for a girl, and you are reluctant to move away from that default, like moving away from this is a big decision. Do you feel she is likely to want long hair again instantly and regret a haircut?

It doesn't seem like you wanting her to keep long hair is a neutral choice. It seems loaded with your concern that she is rejecting femininity - which is the theme of your posts.

I really don't want to cut her hair off - it would take so long to grow back. Until now her choices have all been instantly removable (clothes/toys) if she moved on from this, but a short hair cut is something else.

It does sound like you will tolerate her rejection of girl clothes and toys because you feel that they are temporary choices and easily reversible - which does rather sound like you are hoping she will embrace it all again in the near future.

I'm not trying to be unkind, I'd be a little upset if my dd wanted to cut her hair as it is so beautiful and I love it, but I know I'd let her do it if it was important to her and I understood it was not a whim that she would instantly regret. I don't feel that she should have it long to suit me.

I think the message that some things are for boys and others for girls is impossible to avoid no matter how hard you try, and young children will find it particularly confusing. Especially when there are adults out there saying 'Oh you like pirates, then you must be a boy!' (I know you haven't done that op).

It also does sound as though you do have certain expectations about how your dd's should be. You said you were originally anti-pink with dd1 and now you seem to be anti- what you percieve to be too boyish with your dd2. I know we all have our own plans for our children to some degree but you can't force them to like certain things, or to look or act certain ways because that's what you like.

She doesn't want it for practical reasons - of course she doesn't, she's 3/4. But it is in itself a practical hairstyle. That's the point - she is not asking for something it would be unreasonable for a parent to let her have.

You have loads of great advice here.

But I am sick of reading the word 'Tomboy' You don't fit into what society stupidly believes is 'girly' and you are a tomboy.

I have short hair, live in trousers and I'm just me. I'm not a Tomboy and neither should children be labelled as one.

OP - it's a behaviour issue and she is reacting to YOU! For whatever reason, she is picking up on your reluctance to cut her hair and is battling you about it. The adding in of the 'are you a boy or a girl' questions are just adding to the toxic mix.
Please take a deep breath and pick your battles. Is her long hair your 'point of no return?'
Please let her be herself as she sees it. There are plenty of behaviours that you will have to insist on - empathy, kindness, manners, cooperation etc. This is just a hair cut!

Very sensible louisatwo.
Back off, relax and enjoy your child at the state she is at.

Cutting hair is not permanent.

That's the great thing about it.

louis adding to the toxic mix. Really?!! That's rather extreme.

She hasn't mentioned the hair this evening, ket's see what happens tomorrow.

Don't mention it! A shorter cut isn't the end of the world. Remind her that it isn't a boy cut but a short cut.

OP, I have an 11 year old daughter and your situation is almost identical to my own experiences with my child. I also had a child who became distressed when asked to wear anything that she saw as ' girl ' clothes. All her toys, books, imaginative games, dressing up etc have been what would generally be viewed as more masculine. I have 2 daughters and have tried very hard to encourage my children to be themselves and not to feel that they have to conform to gender stereotypes ( in respect of play, toys, books, clothes, activities etc). My 11 yr old DD became so upset because she was 'different' to her peers thàt she was referred to a paeditrician and eventually a Gender Identity clinic in order to support her through her confusion. I have no idea what puberty will bring. My short haired, trouser wearing ' tomboy' ( her choice of description not mine) may grow up to be straight, gay, transgender, bisexual, asexual or whatever. Myself and her Dad really don't care as long as she is happy in her own skin. We will support and celebrate her whatever. In my own experience, I have had to have some very honest conversations with my child regarding her appearance and her wish to wear clothes that cause kids in her class to comment ( asking her why she has boys shoes etc). We have explained that she can wear what she wants but that she needs to understand that others may comment as they find it unusual for a girl to wear boys school uniform and shoes. On every occasion she has still chosen to wear boys clothing regardless of her anxieties about other people judging her. I understand why you asked your child if they viewed themselves as a girl or a boy because I have had similar discussions with my daughter. It's not as bizarre as some previous posters have suggested - its just opening up a dialogue with your child about how they view themselves ( which commonly happens in preschools and nurseries actually, along with other stuff like what colour are your eyes, hair etc, ). I can't tell you if your child is possibly transgender but what i have learnt from my daughter is that by accepting her as a unique individual and encouraging her to be herself, we now have a much more confident and happy child. Trust you own instincts and if you feel that your childs distress about hair and clothes is deep rooted, then support her as best you can and try not to listen to the opinions of others who haven't actually had to really face the confusing questions that raising a child in this situation presents you with. X

My ds (10) has lovely long hair, I would be a bit gutted if decided to have it cut short as I think it suits him but he is allowed to make his own hairstyle choices ( had to veto a Mohican because of school rules) same should apply for all children imo. A boy at school said his hair made him look like a girl, the influence of his feminist mum and big sister must have been strong that day as he said" and what's wrong with that?"

It's absolutely not something I fixated on, just something I was curious about

[shocked] You asked your 4 year old dd 'are you a boy or a girl?' because you were curious? I feel like you're really not getting what most of the posters on this thread are saying.

You are messing with something that has HUGE implications for your daughter, her sense of identity and who she is, on grounds that you are curious about whether she wants to be a boy? She is 4! Do you see OP that most mothers, if their dd wants to cut her hair, do not become curious about whether the dd wants to be a boy? And even if they wondered about that, they wouldn't ask that of a 4 year old?

Why don't you take her for a haircut today?

Why don't you take her for a haircut today?