"he fights like a girl"- To feel despair at engrained and pervasive sexism

[Evelight]

yesterday evening, I took DS (10) to his Taek won do class. I was reading a book. The Master's son, same age as mine, had broken his collarbone and couldn't practice, he came and sat next to me, and bored out of his mind, started chatting, what are you reading, what is it etc, a nice kid. At some point I asked him if he knew my DS and enjoyed fighting with him (sthg like that anyway). He answered yes, and added jokily "he sometimes fights like a girl."

I was surprised, because at that particular school, there are several female instructors, one of them a former national gold medallist who is amazing. They literally kick ass. I should have had the presence of mind to retort "well if he fights anything like Miss XX, it would be awesome!"- but of course I only thought of that later, as one does, and only smiled uncomfortably in the moment.

the point being- I witness kids (my kids included) come up all the time with all sorts of these (what I would have hoped are but obviously not) outdated pronouncements still rife with casual sexism (girls suck! boys are gross!) despite the best efforts of PC school programming and education. It's not getting better as they grow older either. Sometimes I argue, sometimes I don't. But really, when are we going to move on from this crap?

Flat is getting a hard time!!

Guess what I fight like a girl run like a girl, I also dress like a girl - I'm not ashamed of it!

Men and women are different we are softer gentler more caring in the main, I know my kids better than DH as he doesn't get the little things like who wants sauce on a sandwich.

People should play to their strengths not argue about rolls and responsibilities!

Who organises play dates - kids usually!!

sally you are missing the point.

Using 'like a girl' as a put down is sexist.

I don't fight like a girl. I am woman. I fight like me. Which is different to how my dd fights, which is different to how my ds fights. Which is different to how the many women and men at my dojo fight.

What does fight like a girl actually mean?

", I know my kids better than DH as he doesn't get the little things like who wants sauce on a sandwich. "

Errr, so? I can't remember which of my kids likes ketchup, so I just ask. Do I need to check if my vagina has extruded a penis?

Ignoring the ignorant: I fight like an ineffectual fighter. I do not fight like Ronda Rousey. I would love to fight like Ronda Rousey. Who is a "girl". With a vagina.

The examples of ass-kicking women on this thread has cheered me enormously.

All this shit is no different to those idiots that think toys should be gender neutral. Pink stinks etc etc. Get over it. And stop getting offended and prickly. Most of you are making such a big issue over this fights like a girl comment.
Its embarrassing.

Why shouldn't toys be gender neutral, Flat? And why is it embarrassing?

"Fighting like a girl" in reference to tae kwon-do, is a particular anachronism.

If we're going to be making sexist generalisations, which sex has a higher level of hip flexibility? It isn't the male sex.

"Fights like a girl" could just as easily means "tries to kick me in the head more" as "gentle". Of course, it generally does not, because it's a fossilisation from a time when the focus was always on areas where men tend to do better than women (for example, natural upper body strength) rather than areas where women tend to do better than men (in this case high kicks).

Pink doesn't stink flat , but what does stink is assuming - worse, teaching - our kids that pink is for girls and not boys. Then girls start to pay attention to what is in pink packaging and identify that as for girls, and boys pay attention to it as not being for them. Which is bollocks and nothing to do with what sex you are. Some girls like dolls and dressing up, some boys like dolls and dressing up. But by the age of 3 kids already have firm gender stereotypes ingrained into them, and we see it play out and become entrenched in pre school onwards. Gender segregation starts and is reinforced by adults. And kids notice this. They notice the subtle use of language to categorise boy/girl and the images around them. It matters.

Misty
Pink/blue. This has been going on for years. What difference does it make.
Its a new fad which a certain minority are trying to change. And why? I Dont see any adults damaged by this. Do you? Lets be realistic here.

Just because something has been going on for years, does that mean we don't challenge it?

And yes, I see plenty of adults damaged by gender stereotyping. Young men with horrendous suicide rates, women who accept 'their lot' and don't reach their potential, men who miss out on an equal relationship with their children and children who miss out on having a significant father involvement. Lots of damage.

Why shouldn't toys be gender neutral? Why do my daughter's doctors kit and firefighter kit say "Boy'S ___" on it? What message is that sending to young girls who want to be doctors or firefighters?

Flat you have completely missed the point. Its not about whether there are differences between men and women, because of course there are.

And its not about whether girls can or can't fight.

Its about using the term 'fight like a girl' as an insult. That is what is wrong.

Its about sexist attitudes in society in general being seen as OK, which pervades society and helps keep women unequal to men.

I also agree with Misty. It is damaging for men and women.

DS2 really likes 'girl' stuff but always seems to need to check with me that its OK to like girl stuff. He has a strong character and doesn't seem worried about being teased for liking 'girl' stuff, but nonetheless he still needed my reassurance that it was OK.

That comment is sexist to both males and females.

Boys because apparently they should be all macho.

Girls because they are seen as weak.

I take it that you think people should just get over racism too flat and stop making a fuss? Sexism is poisonous and damaging and I challenge it where I find it. Sadly lots of people think women and girls should just put up and shut up...

OTT- this thread inspired me to look up the difference between ingrained and engrained LOL

I liked the in-group out-group theory somebody gave further up thread. Another way of thinking about it is that the "common language" of people simply hasn't really caught up with the very really advances women have made in sports,professions etc. Because yes, it seems there is a very wide gap between what kids are being taught in their families and schools (boys and girls are equal! everyone must be treated fairly!) not to mention what they are actually seeing (female athletes! female doctors!) and what they are actually learning to express from their peers and broader societal messages about what girls and boys are actually supposed to do (Girls are weaker! moms organize playdates!). The question is, how to close that gap- especially in the face of opposition like Flat up there- that it doesn't really matter, and this all the agenda of a "certain minority"- which minority, i wonder?

The world we live in is more equal in some ways but TV is terrible for gender roles and I think kids get a lot of it from that unless they are taught to see it. DD1 (8) now watches and reads things and complains about the sexism and lack of female characters. I'm so proud!

Giddy- A couple summers back, I gave my DD (now 13) my old Lloyd Alexander's Prydain books to read- and she hated them! I was flabbergasted! She hated how Taran was "sexist" toward Eilonwy- she hated taran's character generally, and how dull and grumpy he always was- and she was annoyed that Eilonwy, despite being clearly brighter, livelier and more likeable, was not the hero! I would have never thought of those books as sexist, and even though I am not sure I agree with her, it made me think about them in a different light.

The other thing is, thinking about my DD and DS, despite going through same school system, same parenting values (though of course there would have been nuances in how we treat them differntly as boys and girls - not denying that), similar friends circle- DD is much more sensitive and quicker to call out sexism- DS not at all!

So going back a couple of summers when your 13 year old DD was say around 11. She read your books and said that a certain character was sexist?

Absolute shit. A child that age would not even know what that was unless it had been rammed down her throat by a feminist mother.
People like you are dangerous OP.

You are dangerous Flat.

I read loads of Enid Blyton as a kid - remember the Faraway Tree? Where Bess and Fanny are sometimes not allowed out as they have ironing (or whatever) to do but Jo is? I was a lot younger than 11 when I read those and I could recognise it as sexist, although I might not have had the necessary vocab to express it that way.

All this 'fight like a girl' and insidious sexism is why fewer women than men go into STEM jobs and there isn't a 50/50 split of male or female stay at home parents. It's why if men drink alcohol, it excuses their behaviour; but if women drink it their behaviour is condemned. It's why my husband is fawned over and applauded for being a SAHD and I am asked if I feel guilty for going to work.

There's some extrapolation there but it is all under the same umbrella of sexism. I don't know if you are just some goady fucker out for a fight but you've actually made me angry.

flat get a grip.

My dd could recognise sexism before 5. She didn't call it sexism. But was fully aware of it when a boy told her she should have a Ben 10 lunch box because those are for boys. She corrected him.

I don't know any 11 year old girl that wouldn't be aware of what sexism is.

I am raising 3 girls - it would be dangerous NOT to be a feminist mother - especially when people play down sexism still

And you are truly ignorant if you really think that people haven't used "fight like a n*er" or "fight like a poof" as an insult

I played with Micro Machines, Ghostbusters, Transformers, Lego. Imagine if someone had told me they were "boys' toys" (as they were mostly marketed as)?

Instead, my non feminist-hippy-crunchy parents let me play with what I liked (I do recall my mum despairing a bit because I didn't like dresses, though). How "dangerous" they were.