"he fights like a girl"- To feel despair at engrained and pervasive sexism

[Evelight]

yesterday evening, I took DS (10) to his Taek won do class. I was reading a book. The Master's son, same age as mine, had broken his collarbone and couldn't practice, he came and sat next to me, and bored out of his mind, started chatting, what are you reading, what is it etc, a nice kid. At some point I asked him if he knew my DS and enjoyed fighting with him (sthg like that anyway). He answered yes, and added jokily "he sometimes fights like a girl."

I was surprised, because at that particular school, there are several female instructors, one of them a former national gold medallist who is amazing. They literally kick ass. I should have had the presence of mind to retort "well if he fights anything like Miss XX, it would be awesome!"- but of course I only thought of that later, as one does, and only smiled uncomfortably in the moment.

the point being- I witness kids (my kids included) come up all the time with all sorts of these (what I would have hoped are but obviously not) outdated pronouncements still rife with casual sexism (girls suck! boys are gross!) despite the best efforts of PC school programming and education. It's not getting better as they grow older either. Sometimes I argue, sometimes I don't. But really, when are we going to move on from this crap?

"Hits/throws/runs like a girl".
"Big girl's blouse".
"Boys don't cry".
"Man up".
"Pussy".

All of these are sexist phrases and each one implies that women, womanhood or any aspect of femininity is weak and to be ashamed of. The more we play them down, the more acceptable it will be to use them, fewer girls will feel supported in going into sports, the cycle will just continue.

Fights like a girl!

most people don't realise how insidious sexism is. This discussion shows that. And yes Flat I am talking about you

sally read that book I mentioned. Seriously. Girls do worse on a test if they have to indicate their gender at the start. That's just one of the results of 'a bit of fun'

I do find the 'but boys run faster than girls' type thing difficult. On average they do and on the face of it, there is nothing wrong with it. Equally I don't want the assumption to be girls can't run and boys can.

I can't think of 1 sexist comment about men that is bandied around and applied to a woman on a daily basis that is meant as a put down?

Stating, as a scientific fact, that studies have shown on average men run faster than women due mainly to their physique, is not sexist.

Saying "girls can't run" or "you run like a girl" is sexist.

no Tilder what you mean is SOME boys run faster than SOME girls - I'd like to see some bloke off the street beat Jessica Enis Hill in a race ffs

ergo SOME girls/women run faster than SOME men/boys

that's a fact!

ghosty said it much more succintly than I could

Sallyhasleftthebuilding Can you really not see the difference between pisstaking teasing between mates, and a young boy saying it for real?

Indeed, the best way to challenge this type of thing is to say, "some boys do xyz, some girls do xyz" so highlighting that there are more similarities than differences between sexes, and variability within sexes.

Sorry ghosty that was why I said on average. On average it will hold true, but not in every case.

Yes ovaries, I guess its sexist when it's said that someone can't do something because they are a girl.

I'm glad to hear the positive comments - hopefully I'll have the presence of mind to make a (gentle! not too assertive or threatening!!!) comeback next time.

I guess what made me feel depressed in this particular incident is that this kid is exposed daily to very (physically/mentally) strong, very talented women, one of whom who has succeeded to the highest level in a traditionally male sport- he is seeing them and interacting with them all the time (being the son of the owner/master- I gather he spends a lot of time there). Yet despite these fantastic female role models, he thinks nothing- I mean uncritically absorbs and repeats the sexist crap he picks up from "society" at large.

Even in my own family- we have any number of female professionals/academics/working moms. Yet I have heard my DS heard say stuff like "girls aren't good at maths"- where are they getting this from? I have challenged him on this: look, I am good at maths, your sister is good at maths- we are helping you right now FFS! but it seems like these individual personal interactions aren't enough to counteract the general pervasive sexist carp.

I hate this too. I had a falling out with FIL over it because he thought he'd take the piss out of my frisbee throwing ability (or lack of). He just couldn't see why it even remotely bothered me and certainly couldn't understand why I didn't want the kids to hear it.

If you do consider sport training is usually far more important than your sex for the vast majority of people. Yes at the top end there are differences in men and women but most people aren't at the top end and there is a huge overlap between the sexes. My DH could beat me in a 50m sprint but over any longer distance and he can forget it and I am by no means any kind of elite athlete.

Ha ha

I have put quite a bit of work in the This Horse household into reclaiming 'like a girl'

Without outing myself too much I dabble in the fringes in a mildly extreme sport involving bikes. DH has accompanied me sometimes but can't match me for fitness, speed, skill or suicidal recklessness. He crashes. I don't. And I'm way faster.

Several,years ago DH was teaching one of the dd s to ride a bike and remarked ' she's doing ok but was a bit of a girl about doing X and y' which set me thinking. I said something to the effect of 'what you mean she rides like me? I kick your ass' He conceded I had a point, and now actually consciously makes the effort to use the phrase 'ride like a girl' as a compliment.

I've pulled a few fellow riders up on it ' hey he rides like a girl' and I say 'yeah, and if you train hard and practice you MIGHT be able to ride like a girl too' small stuff. But we reclaim the language a phrase at a time.

My Daughter (middle one) is a cracking footy player (hope to play for England one day) she has a T'shirt that says 'I kick like a girl ...try to keep up'

I like the idea of turning it round to be a positive thing. Rather than saying that's not true etc. Next time I hear this crap I will say 'yes, he throws like Venus Williams'. Sort of. Maybe I need to know my female athletes better(any athletes to be honest).

It does creep in. I have no idea where from. 'She can't be a dr', 'it isn't a proper job', 'it's not your money it's dads'. Ffs

I didn't mean to offend before ghosty. Sorry if I did.

As a 'girl fighter' (sports and intellectually-based unless you are a bloke trying to intimidate) of decades, I really think we've gone a step forward and 2 steps back on this, over the last 10 years.

Yes - combat sports and male-dominated trades/professions/interests have 'opened up' a lot more, as has the female versions - which is good; unfortunately the current 'fashion' and style for both genders is over-sexualized in appearances.

I found the 70-80s far more tolerant of deviation from gender and sexual typicality (towards heterosexuals) than today. The current 'Trans' focus being a case in point - most Trans-men seem to want to be very overtly 'female' and follow the current trend for lots of make-up, high heels, foundation underwear (like Victorian corsetry) and tit-tape.

We'll finally get away from 'this shit' (as per OP's definition) when we stop expecting and demanding from others and just 'do' ourselves, when it comes naturally and isn't forced.

No you didn't at all Tilder x

That's ok then.

I smiled when I read the post about your daughters t shirt.

it is an epic T shirt!

it's funny when ever we go camping she'll find a gang of boys with a ball - first they are funny about playing with her as she's a girl - then they let her join in - then they slink of one by one because she runs rings round them :( but usually one or two good ones become her best mates for the holiday

she almost got scouted for Liverpool last summer - as an Evertonian I was horrified!

She sounds brilliant. Although Liverpool might be a step too far. Any team but Liverpool .

I remember a few yrs ago- maybe DS was 5 or 6, I was at daycare picking him, same as his best friend's dad was picking up bf. DS asks bf's Dad: can bf come over for a playdate? the dad responds: you'll have to ask his mom for that- she's in charge of all the plays dates. wtf. (his mom is actually a full-time professional- just like him btw)

I was so pissed off- like, thanks big guy for undoing all the effort school, family, myself, are putting into ensuring we move past this nonsense. We get it. You are too manly to organize play dates.

Honestly tho. you can tell I am still fuming, 5 yrs later.

Again, at the time I just smiled awkwardly and moved on.